First Resurrection, is it of Time Place or Rank?

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Where does this group of 'the dead' come from?  What made their name 'appear' in the book of life?  When did they do 'works' 

Read Matthew 25:31-46 

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

We know they didn't come from the sea giving up their dead, we know they didn't come from death and hell delivering up their dead as those come next.  

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Even though Revelation literally says 'The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.'? The 'rest' of the dead. Is this supposed to be confined to a region on earth, or just the land, or only cemeteries? 

The rest of the dead are the remaining dead, people die everywhere on earth. The rest would come from everywhere: deserts, rainforests, tundra, under sports stadiums  etc. I would think the sea is mentioned as it's a special case; those bodies are not recoverable. Most all bodies are in graveyards. Recovering the dead from the seas would take great power and resources. 

You can think as you see fit but when I see "The rest of the dead..." it's all of the remaining and that includes the dead in the vast oceans.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How do they get to be bodyless?  Does God give every seed a body or not?  If He says He does, in no uncertain terms, then where does He negate that in no uncertain terms?

Revelation 6:9 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here is the problem I have with that.  Either GOD is or isn't the author of confusion.  CONFUSION would be having body less entities who 'cried with a loud voice' and be given a 'white robes' which requires a body.  

Would you agree?

I would agree that when the scripture of truth says 'souls' that is exactly what is meant and is not a mistake, error or contradiction. I will agree this is what I must accept as truth without dispute and must adjust my thinking to conform to His, not adjust truth to fit my lack of understanding.

"5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality."

The ego and awareness are present. Is it so hard to think these cannot speak? Our Father has no body, for He is Spirit. Yet it is said He speaks, has a right hand, He sees, He walks...

And the passage doesn't address the wearing of the robes. It's filling a gap to say; "They were given robes, robes must be worn, therefore they have bodies." This is also illogical as the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. The only fact we have here is that they were given robes, nothing else.

 

 

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What would cause even more confusion FOR ME, is to have the same words mean 'with a body' one time and 'without a body' another.  Especially if God TELLS US 'to every seed a body'.  How is it possible for seeds to go body less if God tells us they all have bodies?

One is a metaphor and the other is a prophecy requiring fulfillment. 

Is it that difficult? When the souls who were beheaded, and DID NOT receive the mark, nor worship the beast nor the image, they had bodies. The body was killed, beheaded, and the soul, which never dies, was taken to be with God. 

So are you saying that all the dead in the graves have new bodies and reside some where, right now? Even though the scripture says there is the sleep of death? Even though it's said in 1 Thess 4:

"

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

There are dead bodies that will be resurrected.

 

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you realize that 'the last day' never again appears after Christ is crucified?

So you're gap filling again, and arguing from silence. 

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And the 'last day' Jesus lived and died took place, in which the graves were opened souls were raised,?

The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

 This isn't 'all'. Don't gap fill.

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And that all individuals themselves have a 'last day' in the flesh?  

Doesn't prove anything. We all die. This isn't a conclusive understanding of the topic in context.

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you believe that the next time Peter sees Jesus is when we all do all at once?  Is that what you read in this conversation?  Does it sound like a group last day or a personal last day?  

 

What I believe is irrelevant. Jesus said,

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen."

You are free to do with that as you wish. 

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for Thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.


John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in Me, and I in you.


I think people are used to specific compartments for what they believe and they never make those compartments fit with each other to tell the whole story because when we do,  we find one belief is built from another, so who can be wrong about even one?   

'Every seed a body'...'Sown and raised bodies'...and 'neither doth corruption inherit incorruption'. 

"Make the compartments fit..."?? Trim a little here, saw a chunk off there?

The problem is failure to listen favoring personal belief. We all need to just stop interpreting and hear Him. 

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

We can't be alive in Christ and be dead in Christ.  An inconvenient fact. 

Alive spiritually forever, in Christ. Dead as in the death of the body, dead to the world, dead to lust and conformed to His image. You're still confusing the physical, fleshly truths with the spiritual reality our souls never die.

If you are in Christ you are the seed of Abraham. 

 

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Either 'the unsaved/dead' rise at the beginning of the Lords Day or there is no one to rule and reign over.   

Not true at all. 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In every case in the Bible when a man died, he GAVE UP his spirit. The human spirit returns to God at death (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). The BODY returns to the elements and the SOUL goes to Hades in the heart of the earth.

A dead man is ripped apart at death. It is "ABSENT from the BODY" in death (2nd Cor.5:8).

I guess my question is HOW is it the 'spirit' is being 'separated from ALL BODIES' in your belief,  when it is written

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

I am asking you to give me the Scripture that STATES  'the words written above are incorrect'. 

because when I add the above to

 

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

to ME anyhow, the question of 'spirit' goes to God',   ISN'T telling us NOTHING but the spirit goes to GOD.  Having been reading the words of God for quite a while,  the wisdom and logic I find as God shares a part of His mind with us tells me HEY take this truth and make sure you use it everywhere you go when you read My words UNLESS something expressively tells you 'here it is different' and I am not finding that in the scripture you are giving me.  Do you have anything more to add so  I can say 'YES, I SEE, that is written' right there?

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There is no case of a dead man being judged. ALL Judgments are for LIVING men.

I am going to ask you to step back and 'regroup' for a bit as I know you know these things,  and some THING else working here.  HERE IS THE PROOF

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

No it is not. The context of Isaiah 66:24 is men in the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20 shows that they are FIRST resurrected and then judged worthy of the Lake of Fire. So LIVING MEN are in the Lake of Fire. The designation "carcass" is to show that they are in the Second Death - as Matthew 10:28 shows by the use of the place "Gehenna".

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

They clearly died a physical death. Paul says as much in 2 Timothy. He knew he was on his way to a physical death. After that he knew he would live with Christ.

It's well documented that all the apostles were executed, Stephen being the first, except for John. 

 

BUT you and I know that isn't death AT ALL.  That is just going from one body to the next.  We are NOT LIKE THE HEATHEN in we that we 
 

Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Matthew 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Matthew 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

When? No scripture tells us this has happened to anyone after the saints who rose at the death of Jesus. What Paul is writing about happens at the return of Jesus. I don't dispute there are two bodies, it's obvious that is true. 

The only CHANGE that comes at the last trump FOR THE SAVED is the alive and remaining being changed.  

Do you understand why 'the dead' rising  AT THAT TIME CAN'T become IMMORTAL?

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

The change from the corruption of death to the imperishability of eternal life comes at the last trump.

The 'imperishability' isn't immortality.  Imperishable still faces 2nd death.  

It is impossible to be give LIFE ETERNAL and then to be FOUND DEAD.  If this were ANY OTHER SUBJECT either than the words of GOD we would never even be having this conversation.  

EX.  I am going to ADD a million dollars to your bank account every time it drops one cent below 5 million dollars,  for all eternity.  

When I come to see you, you haven't a dime.  

IS THAT POSSIBLE?  

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't know if we know HOW it works, just that it does work. We see the principle, not the mechanics. But just like the seed must die for a time and lay dormant over cold, harsh winters, the body may lay in the grave for some time before the warmth of the sun[Son] raises up new life.

How long did the saints who were raised from the dead at Jesus death lay in the grave? Undeterminable. They got new bodies. Unless we think they were appearing to many in a rotting, walking, corpse, zombie-like. Time isn't a factor. Our souls do not die even as the body rots. We have eternal spirits as the breath of life given to us by God is eternal from the eternal. 

Lazarus was dead 3 days. Jesus was dead three days. Both had brand new bodies. 

Honestly I'm not sure about your point.

 

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

THAT is how long it takes.  Is it always that fast?  I don't know.  


Lazarus came out in the same body.  He was still wrapped.  He died, but he didn't RISE.  BUT that is not OUR example for what happens at death that is an example about JESUS having POWER OVER death  itself. 

Should we take examples that are clearly meant for one purpose and ascribe them as being 'what happens' even in the face of Scripture that is clearly put forth for that specific purpose?  I personally don't believe we should.  I think we are given enough wisdom and knowledge to be able to discern that what is specifically written on the subject of death and resurrection,  should be the go to,  and not Jesus showing of His Power from of the Father.  I think that brings about confusion and makes me think of how we are not to put linen with wool.  It just doesn't work out well for Gods Truth.  

I hope this helps clear up 'the point',  in some manner.  

 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

When? No scripture tells us this has happened to anyone after the saints who rose at the death of Jesus. What Paul is writing about happens at the return of Jesus. I don't dispute there are two bodies, it's obvious that is true. 

What about when the angels took Lazarus and the rich man was buried?  What about you will follow?  He told him and if it wasn't so would he have said so?  I go to...you follow after....IF there is a delay UNTIL He returns then there is no 'follow after' at all there is a 'wait till I return'.   

WHAT makes you think there is a delay?  And what would be the purpose?  Don't you feel the sense of urgency in the conversation with Peter?  Why can't I stay with you.  I will die now if if means I go where you go when you go.  But he still had a job to do but Jesus assured him YOU WILL FOLLOW ME.  I will come to you and bring you to the Father so you can be where I am.  Son of man talking to a son of man.  Jesus isn't talking like it isn't going to be in some form unknown.  It will be Peter in a heavenly body.  It isn't mystical,  it is just unseen right now.