First Resurrection, is it of Time Place or Rank?

[transmogrified]

31 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

So it is written 2 bodies but you have managed to make it 3.  

This one
The one we rise in 
AND NOW ANOTHER ONE WE GET WHEN WE COME BACK.  

Now that's a NEW TWIST.  

Where did I say 3 bodies? There is not 

1) this one and

2) the one we rise in and

3) another one when we come back

The one we rise in is an immortal body like the angels and like the glorious body of Jesus...it is the same one we have when we return with Christ and have forever...there are only two bodies..mortal and immortal...I did not say there are three bodies.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

No, it deals with what happens to us at the resurrection...there is nothing in 1 Corinthians that says when believers die they get an immortal body at that very moment. Yes we will get an immortal body but it will not happen till the last day...this is the error...of course we have to die before we get resurrected...look at what the error in 1 Corinthians was...What was it?

'How say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?...Look at the way he is describing this...

"For if THE DEAD rise not, then is not Christ raised...and if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain...ye are yet in your sins...Then they also which have fallen asleep in Christ are perished.."

When he said 'if the dead rise not,' he is not saying the old testament saints had already been resurrected...he is saying 'IF they don't rise (in the future) then neither did Christ rise and we are all lost. 

And when he says 'then they which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished...' he is not saying they have already been resurrected...he is saying if Christ did not rise from the dead then neither will anyone else and we are all lost. 

Ok so going on from there he says 'But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept...' 

He is not saying here these believers who had died resurrected with Christ...it says Christ is the first fruits...not Christ and some saints...' This is the error...Christ alone was resurrected...what does he then say again?

"Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming..'

This is not his FIRST coming at Bethlehem...this is the SECOND coming to the Mt. of Olives...Paul is not referring to Christ's first coming...it would make no sense at all to say it this way...Christ was the first that would rise from the dead, and AFTERWARD they they that are Christ's at his COMING?' His first coming was at Bethlehem.. His resurrection took place after he had died...he was not resurrected at his coming, he was resurrected after he died so when Paul says Christ the first fruits and AFTERWARD those that are Christ's at his 'coming' he is not saying those that are Christ's at his 'going.' The coming Paul was talking about is still future...he came at Bethlehem , he did not come when he ascended up..he was taken up from where he was...he was on the earth, then he was taken to heaven...this was not his coming...there were no saints at that 'coming' because for one thing it was never a coming to start with, so Paul is not referring to his ascension as being his coming...so when Paul says 'they that are Christ's at his coming, he is in no way referring to Christ's ascension into heaven, but when he really does come, which is at the last day.

Look at how the angel said it..."This same Jesus who was taken up from you shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go away into heaven...'

So he was TAKEN UP from us and ascended into heaven...this is not a 'coming,' this is him 'going' away to heaven...he later 'comes again' in like manner...

Blessings to you- Gary

 

Why not consider what the Apostle said that " when he is going to be absent from the body...

(Note he did not say when he will fall asleep, but he said "absent from the body")

I will be together with the Lord where he is. Amen.

Why not say something about that. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[transmogrified]

25 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

So you don't believe we never die,

If we believe in Jesus we will never die...I believe that.

 

26 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

and now you don't believe Christ was the firstfruits of them who slept.

Yes, I believe Christ was the first fruits of those that slept...Saying he is first fruits of those who slept is not saying those who slept arose from the dead...it is saying Christ is the first fruits...and afterward those that are Christ's at his coming...

31 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

You don't believe the graves were opened and saints were seen walking around.

I believe the graves were opened and many of the saints which slept arose...they went into Jerusalem and were known of many...they were not raised in immortal bodies...they went to Jerusalem, not to heaven and they died again just like Lazarus and are sleeping in Jesus until the last day when all will be collectively resurrected as Jesus said...the day Jesus died was not the last day...what Jesus said in John 6 was not fulfilled when Jesus died or when he rose again...he said he would resurrect ALL those who God had given him...in order for him to raise all God had given to him, all those that God had given to him would have to have died...Jesus died some 2000 years ago...there are many saints who belong to Christ and have not been resurrected yet, so what Jesus said in John 6 did not take place at his resurrection...it will take place for all those who God gave to Christ at the 7th trumpet.  

Timothy wrote after the resurrection of Jesus that he is the only one who has immortality..this means no one has been given immortal bodies yet...and how could they? Paul said we shall all be changed at the last trump...the last trump has not sounded yet...Paul didn't say part of us will be changed before the last trump and the other part will be changed at the last trump...

40 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

This does not say some will be changed before the last trump...it says 'let favor be showed to the wicked and yet will he not learn righteousness...' This is the scripture that is being ignored...

Behold I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...

You do not believe this verse if you say some were changed before the last trump..you do not believe this verse if you say some people will be changed before the last trump and some will be changed at the last trump...you do not believe this verse if you say people get immortal bodies when they die...the last trump does not sound every time someone dies...the 7th trumpet sounds one time at the end of the tribulation, not when each person dies.

Of course I believe what Jesus said that if we believe on him we will never die..The only place you can go with that is this verse:

He that overcomes will not be hurt of the second death...because it is without question Jesus or the writers of the new testament would never have written what they have written if never dying meant instant immortal bodies at the point of death...there are so many scriptures you have to totally destroy to make your thesis work...and it doesn't work. If God wanted to do it the way you are saying he could of done it that way...but if he did do it that way, he would not have inspired the writers of the scriptures to say exactly the opposite...he would not have shown Paul that we would all be changed at the last trump if he knew everybody got changed when they died...The only thing left for you to do, is to try to make scriptures say what you want them to say....but this is impossible..when Jesus said both the righteous and the wicked are in the graves, you are just dreaming if you think you can change what is written by saying 'There are no righteous people in the graves...'

Heaven and earth will pass away, but his word will never pass away...Look how you tweaked Rev. 11:18 ...The dead are just those who took the mark...? You are fabricating things out of your own imagination...and the reason you are forced into doing this is that you hold this contrary notion that if you never die that means you must get an immortal body when you die...

And look at how you treated the two witnesses...you said 'that may or may not have happened..' What do you mean that may or may not have happened..?.of course it happened...of course it happened at the last trump..people just don't raise from the dead and ascend up to heaven without God does it...what do you mean it may not have happened? How else did it happen? It did not happen the way you describe it at all. If they got their immortal body when they died, then God himself must have been mistaken to raise up those bodies from the earth...why would he raise those bodies up if they already had an immortal body 3.5 days before? You have something absolutely written showing how it will happen and you substitute your theory in its place and downplay what is written.

You don't have to have an immortal body at the time of death to say you never die...If you say the last day was when Jesus died on the cross and that in the Old Testament you had to wait to be resurrected, but you still say Lazarus was sleeping and was not dead...if he didn't have an immortal body because he was Old testament, then he wasn't dead either even though he didn't have his immortal body according to you. How was he still alive if he didn't have an immortal body? The same way we are still alive and won't have our immortal bodies until Jesus comes...we are sleeping in Jesus, the exact same way Lazarus was...he wasn't dead, he was sleeping...

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

he is saying 'IF they don't rise (in the future) then neither did Christ rise and we are all lost. 

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Hath God said IN THE FUTURE?

Yes, God said 'in the future..' When God said we shall all be changed at the last trumpet that means in the future, for it happens after the tribulation...' When Paul said 'they that are Christ's at his coming, he is meaning the future...for Christ has not come yet...so what does that mean? It means the resurrection is in the future when Christ comes...he has not come yet...he is not meaning when Christ was taken up to heaven...that was not his coming...that was him ascending back to God...at the (future) Second Coming he will come back to this earth from whence he left...so Yes, absolutely it will happen in the future...

What you need to acknowledge is that the scripture does say in the future, and not question it by saying hath God said? Yes, God hath said in the future.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

This verse states it will be in the future...'The Lord cometh out of his place...this is in heaven where he is now...and he will descend down to the earth...so he will come out of his place...but he didn't come the first time to punish the inhabitants of the earth..that will be at the Second Coming...and it is also at that time that all those in the graves will hear his voice and come forth...the earth will disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain...

 

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

This is also at the second coming in the future...the earth did not cast out the dead when Jesus first came...Paul said there WILL be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust...not that the earth had ALREADY cast out the dead...he said God had appointed a day in which this would happen...he was not referring to when Christ came the first time...he was pointing to a FUTURE day. 

If this was fulfilled when Christ was resurrected all of Gods people would have already been resurrected, but when the 7th trumpet sounds it says it is the time when they will be rewarded...his servants the prophets, the saints, and them that fear his name...' Why didn't it say at the 7th trumpet that 'All Gods saints have already been rewarded when Jesus was resurrected? Because that is not what happened back then...if it was true then God would not have said they would all be rewarded at the 7th trumpet..' Saying these were those that were alive and remaining is just the opposite of what was said...it said it was the time of the dead...that they (the dead) would be judged...God is not going by your definition of 'dead only means wicked people..' he is going by his own plan knowing both good and bad people are dead and if it wasn't so he would not have said so. 

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Why not consider what the Apostle said that " when he is going to be absent from the body...

(Note he did not say when he will fall asleep, but he said "absent from the body")

I will be together with the Lord where he is. Amen.

Why not say something about that. 

Your spirit does go back to God who gave it...but it is sleeping in Jesus until the resurrection...so we are with the Lord, in the same sense that when your spirit returns to God who gave it, it is now with the Lord...but it is in sleep mode until the day of resurrection and then this mortal puts on immortality..this is what happened to the two witnesses...their bodies died and they laid in the street for 3. 5 days...their spirit had returned to God and they died....or in other words they were sleeping in Jesus...then when the trumpet sounded the spirit of life from God came into them and they stood on their feet..their spirit had gone to God and was with the Lord, but now it comes back into the same body that it left and was then resurrected  in the same body that it left from only their body was in another form...like Jesus after his resurrection it said he appeared unto the disciples in another form...this is where we get the word 'morph' like a caterpillar into a butterfly...all the ingredients are there when it goes into the cocoon, but then God does some changing and out comes a butterfly. 

Blessings to you

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Completely wrong...The dead are all the dead who lie in the graves...both righteous and wicked...Jesus said the hour comes when all that are in the graves shall come forth...some to life and some to condemnation...some are just and some are  unjust...some are sheep and some are goat...some are wheat and some are tares....some are good fish and some are bad fish...

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus was not wrong...he said there would be some people IN THE GRAVES who would come forth unto eternal life...you absolutely deny any believer would be there, but they are anyway...Daniel said the same thing...'multitudes sleeping the dust of the earth shall awake, some to life and some to condemnation..' You absolutely deny any believer would be there but they are there anyway. 

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The version you would like it to say is 'The hour comes when all those in the graves will come forth...all of them will be condemned because they are wicked.' You would like it to say 'Multitudes of those sleeping in the dust of the earth will awake...all of them to condemnation because only wicked people would be in the dust of the earth." But it doesn't say that. The bodies of both the wicked and the righteous are in the earth and will remain there until the resurrection..

This is how the idea is put forth that only those who take the mark of the beast are judged dead...and the statement that the dead rise first is completely wrong...where that phrase came from was pertaining to the dead in Christ rising first...not the wicked dead...

SEE ABOVE

 

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is just the opposite of what Paul said...the living saints and the dead saints are all changed at the same time...not the living all together at the last trump and the dead changed individually as each one dies...this is absolutely contrary to what Paul said...he did not say 'I show you a mystery, the living will be changed collectively at the last trump, but the believers who have died before will have already been changed when they died..." Nobody's Bible says that...What it does say is that both the living and the dead believers will all be changed collectively in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...' You have gone part way and said the living will be changed at the last trump, but those that sleep in Jesus will also be changed at the same last trump as the living. 

SEE ABOVE

 

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is the crux of the matter: Paul showed us the mystery and it has three criteria that has to be fulfilled...it is like a keyway that opens up the lock...all the little groves and notches have to be placed exactly right or the lock will not open up...here are the three criteria:

1) ALL will be changed collectively...not some at one time and some at another time

2) It will take place for the living and the dead in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye..

3) It will take place at the last trump...not before the last trump

SEE ABOVE

 

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This scripture that plainly states the errors  is cast off as being some mystery that can not be understood...there is no mystery...he shows us the mystery...it was a mystery before but now it is not...it is revealed...its something that can be totally understood...all one has to do is believe it.

SEE ABOVE
 

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, I believe Christ was the first fruits of those that slept...Saying he is first fruits of those who slept is not saying those who slept arose from the dead...it is saying Christ is the first fruits...and afterward those that are Christ's at his coming...

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I believe the graves were opened and many of the saints which slept arose...they went into Jerusalem and were known of many...they were not raised in immortal bodies...they went to Jerusalem, not to heaven and they died again just like Lazarus and are sleeping in Jesus until the last day when all will be collectively resurrected as Jesus said...the day Jesus died was not the last day...what Jesus said in John 6 was not fulfilled when Jesus died or when he rose again...he said he would resurrect ALL those who God had given him...in order for him to raise all God had given to him, all those that God had given to him would have to have died...Jesus died some 2000 years ago...there are many saints who belong to Christ and have not been resurrected yet, so what Jesus said in John 6 did not take place at his resurrection...it will take place for all those who God gave to Christ at the 7th trumpet.  

 1718. emphanizó ►
Strong's Concordance
emphanizó: to exhibit, appear (in person), to declare
Original Word: ἐμφανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: emphanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (em-fan-id'-zo)
Definition: to exhibit, appear (in person), to declare
Usage: I make visible (manifest); hence: I report (inform) against; pass: I appear before.

 

 

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Timothy wrote after the resurrection of Jesus that he is the only one who has immortality..this means no one has been given immortal bodies yet...and how could they? Paul said we shall all be changed at the last trump...the last trump has not sounded yet...Paul didn't say part of us will be changed before the last trump and the other part will be changed at the last trump...

Only one immortal, not received immortality

 

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

...The only thing left for you to do, is to try to make scriptures say what you want them to say....but this is impossible..when Jesus said both the righteous and the wicked are in the graves, you are just dreaming if you think you can change what is written by saying 'There are no righteous people in the graves...'

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Heaven and earth will pass away, but his word will never pass away...Look how you tweaked Rev. 11:18 ...The dead are just those who took the mark...? You are fabricating things out of your own imagination...and the reason you are forced into doing this is that you hold this contrary notion that if you never die that means you must get an immortal body when you die...

You aren't comprehending AT ALL.  THIS IS THE LAST TIME I WILL TELL YOU DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.  DO NOT ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE.  THIS IS CALLED LYING.  

I HAVE NEVER SAID MANY THINGS YOU HAVE POSTED THIS MORNING AND I WILL START REPORTING EVERY POST YOU MAKE IN WHICH YOU LIE ABOUT THINGS I HAVE SAID

I HAVE NEVER SAID IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT THE DEAD ARE ONLY THOSE WHO TOOK THE MARK OF THE BEAST.  START FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE THREAD BECAUSE YOU AREN'T UNDERSTANDING ANYTHING I HAVE WRITTEN AND KEEP GOING OVER THE SAME THING AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.  

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, God said 'in the future..' When God said we shall all be changed at the last trumpet that means in the future, for it happens after the tribulation...' When Paul said 'they that are Christ's at his coming, he is meaning the future...for Christ has not come yet...so what does that mean? It means the resurrection is in the future when Christ comes...he has not come yet...he is not meaning when Christ was taken up to heaven...that was not his coming...that was him ascending back to God...at the (future) Second Coming he will come back to this earth from whence he left...so Yes, absolutely it will happen in the future...

NO HE DIDN'T.

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is also at the second coming in the future...the earth did not cast out the dead when Jesus first came...Paul said there WILL be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust...not that the earth had ALREADY cast out the dead...he said God had appointed a day in which this would happen...he was not referring to when Christ came the first time...he was pointing to a FUTURE day. 

NOW YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE THAT CHRIST HAS RISEN?  NOR THE GRAVES OPENED 



I AM DONE AND  TO MAKE SURE YOU KNOW YOU ARE ON IGNORE.  HAVE A GOOD LIFE

[Your closest friendnt]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Your spirit does go back to God who gave it...but it is sleeping in Jesus until the resurrection...so we are with the Lord, in the same sense that when your spirit returns to God who gave it, it is now with the Lord...but it is in sleep mode until the day of resurrection and then this mortal puts on immortality..this is what happened to the two witnesses...their bodies died and they laid in the street for 3. 5 days...their spirit had returned to God and they died....or in other words they were sleeping in Jesus...then when the trumpet sounded the spirit of life from God came into them and they stood on their feet..their spirit had gone to God and was with the Lord, but now it comes back into the same body that it left and was then resurrected  in the same body that it left from only their body was in another form...like Jesus after his resurrection it said he appeared unto the disciples in another form...this is where we get the word 'morph' like a caterpillar into a butterfly...all the ingredients are there when it goes into the cocoon, but then God does some changing and out comes a butterfly. 

Blessings to you

Why no follow Jesus, who can speak for himself.

And he spoke from himself while he was with Martha, and he spoke after the resurrection and he spoke from Heaven. 

And we have the witness of Peter, John and James at the mount of transfiguration. 

And the witness of both Elijah and Moses and the voice of God from Heaven who gave his witness about Jesus, in the presence of Moses and Elijah and when God said in Mathew 17:5

5. While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.^(D) Listen to him!” 

[transmogrified]

6 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Why no follow Jesus, who can speak for himself.

I'm not sure what you mean here...was there something I said that was not scriptural? Of course we are to listen to what Jesus says...but he sent apostles and prophets as well and this is the foundation we are to build on...the foundation is:

1) Apostles

2) Prophets

3) Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone...

So it is not just Jesus we are to listen to, but also to the apostles and prophets...I was referring to the two witnesses in Revelation...this was recorded by John who an apostle...and in other posts I was referring to what Isaiah said who was a prophet...and when talking about the resurrection on the last day I was referring to what Jesus said in John 6

Paul the apostle spoke about those who sleep in Jesus...Jesus spoke about Lazarus sleeping...where Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection in another form was written in Mark 16:12...the analogy of a butterfly was an illustration of what 'morph' means ...which means to transform or change something from one form to another...

Blessings to you- Gary