Where was Jesus?

[BlindSeeker]

How about I Peter 3:18-20?

When did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison?

Do you believe Jesus preached to the spirits in prison through Noah before the flood?

Yes.

• I Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
  19 By which [Spirit] also He went and preached unto the spirits [now] in prison;
  20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
  
  I Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
  11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
  
  
  
  • Lu 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
    

Noah was a prophet.

Peace

[BlindSeeker]

Greetings,

You bring up an interesting verse Blindseeker:

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

1378 dogma {dog'-mah}

from the base of 1380; TDNT - 2:230,178; n n

AV - decree 3, ordinance 2; 5

1) doctrine, decree, ordinance

    1a) of public decrees

    1b) of the Roman Senate

    1c) of rulers

2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a

    suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment

3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

I would say that "ordinances" as used in the above verse has the meaning of # 2) above . . .

I would agree with your statement thus far . . .

I wish I could find the source of this information I am about to share. I knew of it for quite some time (more than 15 years maybe . . . ) but for the life of me cannot recall where I stumbled upon it.

It was communicated to me that it was a custom that if there was one who had accrued a balance of debt that he could not repay . . . and was in danger of the judgement, he could appeal to the compassion of his fellow countrymen.

Without intervention, the individual could be judged and condemn to debtors prison till the debt was satisfied by the selling of his property or the slave labor of his family.

• Matt 18: 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
  
  
  Anybody having compassion could come and sign their name next to any part of the debt and the creditor could then go to the signee and receive his monies due. Should someone have pity so as to assume all the debt, they could fold the lamb's skin closed and sign their name to the outside, this was supposedly called "giving the fold."
  
  By doing this it meant you would take responsibility for all the debts and take them out of way - or relieved him who had accrued them of responsibility. The debts were paid all in full and mercy could rejoice against judgement.
  
  This I believe is the spirit of Col. 2:14.
  
  

- an interesting sidenote to this is Jesus comment about John the Baptist:

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

I believe this is saying that JB was GREATER than Moses. JB's mission was to "make straight paths for the Lord". I believe that the "he that is least" is referring to Jesus Himself, but may also have application to ANYONE who has entered into the Kingdom of Heaven, OR the Kingdom of God on this earth.

I fail to see how it could be applied to Jesus Himself. I do acknowledge that He was the meekest man ever. I have always seen the verse in the latter sense, "application to ANYONE who has entered into the Kingdom of Heaven."

You are correct when you say that Jesus was NEVER "forsaken" by God, for how can God forsake Himself?

I believe Jesus was merely calling attention to the Psalm of David, Psalm 22. The Jew's text book of education was the scriptures, they knew the psalms and other scriptures. Jesus stating what He did would allow the Holy Spirit to call to rememberence what was written. Yes Psalm 22 is prophetic of Jesus' death. It was there being fulfilled right before there eyes, nevertheless, it was still a psalm of David's.

David wrote it when he felt forsaken by God . . . but was he? No. Jesus was not making a proclamation . . . He was making scriptural reference to the moment at hand. Having been whipped, beaten so that "his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men," spoke a few prophetic words that explained the whole situation.

But I believe that there are several times, when Jesus was "responding" in the "flesh" to the events that He was encountering, such as:

John 11:35 Jesus wept.

I would equate this with sorrow of Spirit, not of the flesh. Jesus wept because He knew He had the power to bring Lazarus back to life . . . and was going to. He wept for Lazarus because Lazarus was there already! He was already home . . . and was being called back - yanked back to this world.

Jesus would never cry over the death of a saint.

• Ps 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
  

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I think that it was at times such as these that we see the fulfillment of:

Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Satan returned frequently to "stir up" Jesus physical emotions, although I do not see any of these instances as "sin" per se. So it can be said honestly:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Your thoughts?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I had written about this on the old forum, how Jesus was tempted at least twice by Satan.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.

Jesus said this prior to His going to the garden. I believe that He knew the adversary was going to come again and tempt Him. Praise God for His steadfastness!

Peace my friend.

William

[OneAccord]

QUOTE (Dad Ernie @ May 26 2003, 02:50 PM)

You are correct when you say that Jesus was NEVER "forsaken" by God, for how can God forsake Himself?

Blindseeker responds:

I believe Jesus was merely calling attention to the Psalm of David, Psalm 22. The Jew's text book of education was the scriptures, they knew the psalms and other scriptures. Jesus stating what He did would allow the Holy Spirit to call to rememberence what was written. Yes Psalm 22 is prophetic of Jesus' death. It was there being fulfilled right before there eyes, nevertheless, it was still a psalm of David's.

David wrote it when he felt forsaken by God . . . but was he? No. Jesus was not making a proclamation . . . He was making scriptural reference to the moment at hand. Having been whipped, beaten so that "his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men," spoke a few prophetic words that explained the whole situation.

I find this a very interesting explanation. Jesus was 'merely' calling attention to a Psalm. 'Just' making a scripture reference.

David was a prophet, meaning he was a mouthpiece for God. The Psalms were written by God, not David. About God, not about David. (This is a good example of the literal vs. spiritual interpretations being discussed on another thread.)

Psalm 22 was a prophetic, messianic Psalm. Not just a few lines, but the whole thing. Not just this Psalm, but most of them, if not all.

I believe Psalm 22 is Jesus Christ Himself speaking every word.

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" These words were not just prophesied and then repeated on the cross to 'prove' that He was who He said He was. These words mean what they say.

I believe there is a difference in being forsaken, and being forsaken utterly.

2 Samuel 7:14-15 "I will be His father and he will be My son. If he commits iniquity (when iniquity is laid upon him), I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you."

Saul (a type of Satan) was forsaken utterly, blotted out, removed from before us.

I think it is important to comprehend the greatness of Christ's suffering for us (I'm sure we all agree here). I believe His suffering was not just enduring the rejection, humiliation, and physical blows of men. Many humans have suffered very terrible persecutions and brutul tortuous deaths. I believe He suffered also the full weight of the death penalty for the sins of mankind, before He was revived and rose up in glory. The part of Him that was fully man had to endure the separation from the part of Him that was fully God. During this time He was mocked and tempted continuosly by the workers of iniquity.

[BlindSeeker]

Greeting OneAccord,

I appreciate your perspective, yet I am convicted by scripture to adhere to my present position. It seems obvious to me that both the Apostles Matthew and John are confirming my position, as they both acknowledge Psalm 22 in their accounting of the event -

• Matt 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
  
  John 19: 24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
  
  Psm 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
  

Peace.

William

[OneAccord]

Blindseeker:

We are in agreement that the prophecies in Psalm 22 were fulfilled at the cross. Not only Psalm 22 but all things which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Him.(Luke 24:45)

I think we have a chicken and egg situation here---the prophecies were proclaimed that they might be fulfilled, and the prophecies were fulfilled because they were proclaimed. :upsided:

What I'm saying is that they were proclaimed and fulfilled, and therefore the substance of them actually did happen. His garments were literally divided among them, He was despised by the people, made a reproach, etc. Every verse in Psalm 22 was literally fulfilled, including "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning?"

[BlindSeeker]

. . . What I'm saying is that they were proclaimed and fulfilled, and therefore the substance of them actually did happen.

[OneAccord]

I think that a lot of what is not in the Bible is for a reason, there are mysteries and secrets we are not to know until all is revealed to us. What went on while Jesus was in the heart of the earth is conspicuosly not told to us, although I believe the Psalms can give us some insights.

Why would God forsake Jesus? I am not a scholar of theologian, just another Christian searching out His word, trying to get closer to Him. (Disclaimer )

Here's what I believe:

The wages of sin is death. The consequences of breaking the Law was the death penalty.

Jesus took on the sins of the world, all of them, mine, yours, and everyone's. He had to be sentenced to death, endure the death penalty to pay the wages of sin. He atoned for us by giving His blood, which was His life, to pay for our redemption.

I believe that death without salvation is a separation from God. Christ had to endure this separation between the cross and the resurrection(ultimate salvation). Being separated from God is being forsaken.

[angels4u]

Could it simply mean that because Jesus came from heaven to earth that He called the earth a lower place??

[BlindSeeker]

I think that a lot of what is not in the Bible is for a reason, there are mysteries and secrets we are not to know until all is revealed to us.  What went on while Jesus was in the heart of the earth is conspicuosly not told to us, although I believe the Psalms can give us some insights.

Why would God forsake Jesus?  I am not a scholar of theologian, just another Christian searching out His word, trying to get closer to Him. (Disclaimer   )

Here's what I believe:

The wages of sin is death.  The consequences of breaking the Law was the death penalty. 

Jesus took on the sins of the world, all of them, mine, yours, and everyone's.  He had to be sentenced to death, endure the death penalty to pay the wages of sin.  He atoned for us by giving His blood, which was His life, to pay for our redemption.

I believe that death without salvation is a separation from God.  Christ had to endure this separation between  the cross and the resurrection(ultimate salvation).  Being separated from God is being forsaken.

• Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
  
  
  
  • Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
    
    

Matt 26: 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

I Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[OneAccord]

Yes, because of the precious blood of Jesus, we who are believers in Him will NEVER have to know that separation. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Amen.

BUT what i'm trying to say is that Jesus did have to endure and suffer that separation momentarily in the work of redemption that was done for us.