Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[Sister]

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

We are in that city now!  Dwelling, learning, taking instructions/warnings, given the tools to fight evil which are all the things we are commanded to do and not do.  This city is invisible because it's spiritual, not made of flesh, but made of the living Word.  You cannot see God's doctrine, because it's not tangible, it's of the spirit, and if we eat his spirit, his words, it dwells inside us.

The light Christ gives is not the light from the sun, it's a different type of light.  It's one that goes throughout all your senses, and into your whole heart, mind and soul. It's a light coming from this city that reveals things, good and bad, it gives purpose and hope, it is nurturing and comforting.  A sanctuary we can escape to and feel it's protection, because truth is there.  You can't physically see the light of this city -Zion, but you can feel it.  It's there, and it's real. It changes you on the inside, and is alive inside you.  Zion, is not a physical city.  It's a different realm, and only the spirit of Christ can take us there.  So when we feed on truth, we step in there.

Yes there are angels in this city also.  We can't see them however, ....not yet.  But they are busy serving God, and he sends them to help us when the invisible enemy comes, when he is too strong for us.  So much is going on that we are not even aware of. We need to stay under the tabernacle of God, in his holy Zion.

And last of all, we are currently  only 'dwelling' in this city of Zion.  Absorbing all the goodness of her that she can give.  We have not inherited it yet.  Christ will decide who will inherit it.  Not us.  He will stop feeding who-ever does not belong in this city, whoever is straying from the path.

 

 

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Hi Gary

The believing remnant who did follow God through Christ was only a drop in the ocean. 

The scriptures attest to this over and over.

John 1:11   He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12   But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Any Jew that believed on Christ will be in the first resurrection of the saints.  They are not considered remnants.

Hello Sister-

So you agree that the natural branches were in Christ and Jesus is the true vine...we were grafted into the vine they were already in. We are now fellow citizens with the SAINTS...God is calling those who were the natural branches SAINTS....so when he comes with ALL the SAINTS they will be in that number of glorified believers along with you and me. 

Its not a drop in the ocean...it is all those who were in the vine from the beginning...they were in Christ before we were grafted in...those who were not in vine are not counted for the seed. The children of the flesh are not the children of God...not all Israel are of Israel but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE are counted for the seed...These are the CHILDREN of God, just like you and I are children of God...Jesus said whoever does the will of his father is his brother, his sister... 

Blessings to you...so when he comes with all his saints...they will be among them...they are not coming to learn about God, they are going to be rewarded with all the other saints and will rule with us in the Millenium...

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

And who ever is in Zion must have the Father and the Son.  It's a new commandment.  No one can come to the Father any other way, except it's through Jesus.  No one.  Not even those who were under the law and kept it well can by-pass Jesus.

Connect the dots Sister...They were not bypassing Christ ...they were in Christ back in the old Testament...remember what Jesus said...'I am the root and offspring of David...' He was both before David (Old Testament) and he is also the offspring of David (New Testament)

The man who met Abraham in the plains of Mamre was Jesus Christ...this was the same God/Man that met the disciples after his resurrection...this was the God Abraham served...this is the God we serve...these are our brothers and sister in Christ who will be in the number of those who DIED IN CHRIST and will be resurrected with all the other saints...They were IN HIM...they were not by passing Christ any more that we who are in Christ are by passing him.

 

[Sister]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So one thing we want to get at here is the phrase 'the dead in Christ' shall rise first.' It is often stated that this only pertains to New Testament saints and the old Testament saints were not in Christ, but this is not what Paul or Jesus said. 

The Old Testament saints were not in Christ, because they didn't know him.  Knew nothing about him, didn't go through the same baptism he went through.  Was not persecuted for his name's sake.

 

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So we have people in the Old Testament who have their names in the book of life and we also have New Testament saints whose names are in the book of life:

 

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And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow labourers, whose names are in the book of life.

The example of these laboured in the gospel.  Not the law.

 

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So the general assembly, or the church of the firstborn consists of all his saints who are written in heaven, whether from the Old Testament era or the new. That would mean the names of Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepthae, Samuel, David, Job, Daniel and all the prophets have their names in the same book of life as Peter, James and John. 

There are only 24 elders.  I'd say they are not all included.

 Hebrews 12:23   To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The church of the firstborn is named after Christ.  He is the firstborn of the dead.  That's who we follow.  They didn't follow him before.  We shall also be the firstborn of the resurrection, because there is a second one coming.

Matthew 20:16   So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

The last called were the gentiles.  They shall enter the resurrection first.  And the first ones called - Israel, shall go into the resurrection last...at the 2nd resurrection.

In the end, both go in, but not at the same time.

  Hebrews 12:24   And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

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All the saints, both old and new testament, who are coming down from heaven with Jesus at the Second Coming are not coming down to get another chance or so that they can learn of God's ways...no. These are the kings and priests who will rule with Christ for the 1000 years. Those who alive at the time of Christ's return were converted at the Second Coming will be still in mortal bodies but those that come down from heaven will rule over them.

Why not?  Why should they by-pass Christ?  They don't have to learn anything he teaches?  They don't have to learn like we have to today, and go through this process of changing the inner man?  It's just all handed on a plate?  Here, take, you're perfect now, full of wisdom.  Go and preach about me to the lost, go and tell them all the things I experienced and what my servants had to go through also. 

Well they can't preach any of that, because they didn't go through it.  They are not witnesses of Christ and never experienced any of the things Christ's servants have gone through. 

Not all the saints will be kings and priests.  Many saints of the resurrection - vessels of wood, and vessels of dishonour will have to be taught also during the thousand years.  They will have to have their doctrine corrected and re-learn.  The scriptures say that after the resurrection they will be led to the living fountains of water.  This means they didn't receive it before. All they had was faith, and a big sacrifice that washed them clean, but the wisdom is not there yet.

 

[transmogrified]

10 minutes ago, Sister said:

The Old Testament saints were not in Christ,

Did Paul say the natural branches were in the vine? Jesus said he is the true vine and we are the branches..Paul said there were two branches in the same vine...one was the natural ones and the other one was the Gentiles and we were grafted in contrary to nature...they were there in the vine before we were grafted in.

When they are converted Paul said they will be grafted back into this same vine. When it says God is able to graft them in AGAIN it means they will be grafted into the same vine from which they were cut off from. They are grafted in by accepting Jesus... the same vine they were cut off from. 

The difference, in part, between us and the Old Testament saints is that we are not only in him, but Christ is also in us...This was the mystery in the New Testament, was Christ in you, the hope of glory...But the Old Testament saints were in the vine...the root was holy and so are the branches...if they didn't abide in him then it says they were cut off because of unbelief.. just as it says if we don't abide in the vine we also will be cut off...but what are we cut off from? 

The analogy Paul gave in Romans 11 is extremely important and he said we are not to be ignorant of this mystery or we will be wise in our own conceits...Look at what it says:

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And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

We were grafted in AMONG them and WITH THEM we are made partakers of the root (Jesus is the root) and fatness of the olive tree (Jesus is the true vine) 

We are not talking about Israel in the flesh who were not following God in the Old Testament...we are talking about those that were counted for the seed...part of those are mentioned in Heb. 11...Rahab, Moses, David, Araan, Moses, Abraham, Samson...ect...these are some who were the natural branches...these are those who God said we are made partakers of the same root with...

[Sister]

23 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hello Sister-

So you agree that the natural branches were in Christ and Jesus is the true vine...we were grafted into the vine they were already in. We are now fellow citizens with the SAINTS...God is calling those who were the natural branches SAINTS....so when he comes with ALL the SAINTS they will be in that number of glorified believers along with you and me. 

This is how I understand it;

The natural branches were Israel before Christ came.  When they were serving God, obeying his commandments.  They were the first ones to hear God's voice and were offered the promises if they did all he commanded them.

So no the natural branches were not in Christ, because he had not come yet to deliver and lead them.

Christ is the true vine, and God is the husbandman.

When the true vine came, the natural branches were cut off, because they rejected him.  And because they were cut off, the believing gentiles were grafted into that tree.  So through Israel's fall, the Gentiles found grace because they believed Christ.

When the fullness of the Gentiles come in, Israel will be re-grafted back on to that tree.  They need that vine, or else there will be no fruit.

Without that vine, no one can do anything.  That's my whole point.

Mercy will go back to them, and that's what the 1000 years are for.  That is the time of restoration.

So we are not to boast against the natural branches, because Christ will bring them back in again.  And I have heard people boast against Israel and say they were cut off forever, there is no forgiveness for them etc, they miss out on everything, and that is not true, because I know God's plan for them.

 

 John 15:1   I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

  John 15:4   Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

  John 15:5   I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

And no, the natural branches will not be glorified in Christ when he comes, because they will go through shame and sorrow.

 Jeremiah 31:9   They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[transmogrified]

27 minutes ago, Sister said:

The Old Testament saints were not in Christ, because they didn't know him. 

Jesus said before he was crucified to glorify him with the glory he had with the Father before the world was.

Jesus had the same glorified body before the world was as when he was glorified after his resurrection....it was in this glorified body he appeared unto his disciples ...In Gen. 18 it says 

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And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: 

 

Here it says the Lord appeared to Abraham and then it says three men stood by him...one of these men is actually the Lord.

Scripture here is saying Almighty God appeared to Abraham and yet he was a man that actually sat down and ate with Abraham. This is the same God / Man who appeared unto the disciples...Thomas said what to Jesus? My Lord and my God...This same glorified Jesus is the one who appeared unto Abraham. 

This was the God of Abraham...so anytime the Lord spoke to anyone in the Old Testament, or anytime anyone obeyed the God of the Old Testament they were obeying Jesus.

 

 

 

[transmogrified]

10 minutes ago, Sister said:

So no the natural branches were not in Christ,

Does it not say Jesus is the true vine, and does it not say that Israel was the natural branches that were in that true vine?  Because the vine is Jesus and the natural branches were in that vine, it means the natural branches were in Christ. 

There is only one vine...we were grafted into that one vine they were already in. We were not grafted into Israel, we were grafted into Christ. 

[transmogrified]

14 minutes ago, Sister said:

And no, the natural branches will not be glorified in Christ when he comes, because they will go through shame and sorrow.

 Jeremiah 31:9   They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

All the scriptures you cite are of course true...the issue is those who will come weeping are those who are converted at the Second Coming, not the faithful saints of the Old Testament...they are called saints by God...When Jesus comes he will come with all his saints. This is it in a nutshell...It says in that day there will be a great mourning and God will pour out his spirit on the house of Jacob...this is all true..but he is not going to pour out his spirit on those who are now in glorified bodies...those who are resurrected will be in glorified bodies and they are not coming in repentance and sorrow..

[Sister]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Connect the dots Sister...They were not bypassing Christ ...they were in Christ back in the old Testament...remember what Jesus said...'I am the root and offspring of David...' He was both before David (Old Testament) and he is also the offspring of David (New Testament)

The man who met Abraham in the plains of Mamre was Jesus Christ...this was the same God/Man that met the disciples after his resurrection...this was the God Abraham served...this is the God we serve...these are our brothers and sister in Christ who will be in the number of those who DIED IN CHRIST and will be resurrected with all the other saints...They were IN HIM...they were not by passing Christ any more that we who are in Christ are by passing him.

 

I can see where you are coming from, but unfortunately I can't agree and see it the same way you see it.

Christ is the Word of God.  Before he was born of a woman he was spirit.  Whatever God spoke.... was through his Word.  His Word is spirit.  The Word of God comes out of God's mouth.  The Word of God also translated into Melchielzedek also, and Abraham gave tithes to him.  Then he vanished into this air.  So Abraham did meet the Word of God in person before he was made flesh.  Abraham was special indeed.

Jesus being the root and offspring of David shows he is physically from that lineage, the tribe of Judah.  And yes, Jesus as the Word of God not yet born into this world, not yet made flesh was there before David.

Jesus is also referred as David in the New Testatment because of that Lineage of the flesh.

Yes and that man in Mambre was the Word of God also translated into flesh, I agree what you are saying and I understand it.

Look, just give it time and ponder for a while.  This is all new to your ears, what I am saying.  If the OT saints attained that righteousness through the law to enter into the resurrection, then it goes against the scriptures.  It also goes against the purpose of the Millennium.  I know you have said that the OT saints will be brought back in the resurrection, and the survivors of Armageddon will be remain flesh.  But they are all one, and not divided when it comes to the remnants of Israel.  They will all be flesh.  All their numbers are required to start re-populating Israel again.  There will not be a division amongst them.

Any Jew that followed Christ will be in the 1st resurrection.  They are not counted as the remnants because there is no need for them to have children.

And there is a big difference between those Jews in the resurrection and the remnants of Israel.

We cannot say the OT saints followed Christ before he came.  Yes, they may of followed the Word of God, but not the man Christ who was mocked, beaten, hated by all his brethren and crucified because he claimed he was the Son of God.  They never walked in his shoes like we have to.  If any Christian has not suffered persecution because of Christ then there is something wrong with his walk in my opinion, because it comes with the territory.  And suffering for his name's sake shows that a conversion of the heart has taken place, and is proof that Christ is leading one to the kingdom to take part in the resurrection.  And to suffer means that we have walked away from this world and not fulfilled the lusts of the flesh ....and have denied ourselves for him.  The OT saints did not do that.  They all had each other and didn't walk the same narrow path.

I think I will have to leave it here, because I am not getting anywhere in what I wanted to show you because of this disagreement we are having right now.  It doesn't feel right to keep going.  All the best and God bless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Sister