Catholicism vs Christianity

[Anne2]

12 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Not all Levites were priests.

They were Joined to the sons of Aaron.

Numbers 18:1  And the LORD said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father’s house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.
2  And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister before the tabernacle of witness.
3  And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle: only they shall not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar, that neither they, nor ye also, die.
4  And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you.
 

[Fidei Defensor]

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Not all Levites were priests.

The same thing, is for the believers in Jesus, not all of them are allowed in the Most Holy place.  

That’s not true, all of Jesus’ followed may enter the holiest place, “Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh.” (Hebrews 10:19-20) 

For we are all one in Christ, “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28) 

[Anne2]

5 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

That’s not true, all of Jesus’ followed may enter the holiest place, “Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh.” (Hebrews 10:19-20) 

And? So we do enter in through his blood. No Jew was even allowed into either place.

A picture a shadow. for the spiritual reality of what we have in Christ Jesus. Not all have the same function in it.

[Fidei Defensor]

59 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

And? So we do enter in through his blood. No Jew was even allowed into either place.

A picture a shadow. for the spiritual reality of what we have in Christ Jesus. Not all have the same function in it.

We all have access by Christ and through Christ to holiest places. 

Your point earlier about apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers, and prophets, its not offices in the Koine Greek, it is gifts, they are gifts:

“Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.” (Ephesians 4:11) 

Not titles or offices, for Jesus forbids such titles:

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.
9 Call no man on the earth ‘your father,’ for one is your Father, he who is in heaven.
10 And do not be called ‘teacher,’ for one is your teacher, the Christ.
11 Instead, the one who is the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (Matthew 23:8-11)

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Anne2 said:

They were Joined to the sons of Aaron.

Numbers 18:1  And the LORD said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father’s house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.
2  And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister before the tabernacle of witness.
3  And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle: only they shall not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar, that neither they, nor ye also, die.
4  And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you.
 

This is what I also said, they were not allowed to wear the Priestly Garments. 

Yes I understand that as the scriptures you have posted

In the book of Numbers 18:2 2  

And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee:

but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister before the tabernacle of witness.

You know no one was allowed to enter the Holy Place only the Priests during the ministry in the Holy place. 

We know that because on the day of Atonement the High Preist Preist made Atonement for himself and the Priests who were in the Holy place and no one else was present in the Holy Place...and the High Priest bath himself and put on the priestly garments and the same for the other Priests they had to put on their Priestly garments...if not they will die...they needed to be ceremonially clean too. 

They followed very strict rules... 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

That’s not true, all of Jesus’ followed may enter the holiest place,

This is impossible to happen, because the Heavenly Father was not the Lord God of Abraham. 

He was not a party to the Sinai Covenant...

Jesus Christ brought something knew to mankind He open the way to the Heavenly Father.  

You know the story of the death of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was pronounced dead on the Cross...

For three days he was in the place of the dead active in his ministry, and people were saved having the forgiveness of their sins wiped out in his blood before his resurrection from the dead...

Before Jesus was ascended to the Heaven to the Heavenly Father and he said that the reason he went there it was to shaw himself to the Heavenly Father...this is what he said to Peter a little while after his resurrection from the dead...

And he said to Peter it is done  by saying to him.

" I am going to the Father and my God, your Father and your God....because he said I have not saw my self to the Father yet...meaning to saw himself to the Father after his resurrection...and then he came back and stayed with his disciples till the day of his ascension.   

The Hebrews Rabbi have a good illustration for people to understand and before he had read the book of revelation.  

 

4 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

 

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus the new and living way

 

4 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh.”

(Hebrews 10:19-20) 

 

4 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

For we are all one in Christ, “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28) 

Our Lord and Judge is Jesus Christ, he is the Judge of all, the Father has given the Judgment to his Son Jesus. 

Every Knee shall bowed down to Jesus Christ...

[Anne2]

16 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

We all have access by Christ and through Christ to holiest places. 

Yes, as high priest.

 

16 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Your point earlier about apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers, and prophets, its not offices in the Koine Greek, it is gifts, they are gifts:

“Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.” (Ephesians 4:11) 

Not titles or offices, for Jesus forbids such titles:

The model, or reference to these things as found in the law. 

A Gift to Aaron and sons for the service ( liturgy) in the tabernacle.....

Nu 8:19  And I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the children of Israel, to do the service of the children of Israel in the tabernacle of the congregation, and to make an atonement for the children of Israel: that there be no plague among the children of Israel, when the children of Israel come nigh unto the sanctuary. {a gift: Heb. given }
Nu 18:6  And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you they are given as a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Nu 18:7  Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest’s office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest’s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
 

They are also spoken of as an offering

 

Nu 8:11  And Aaron shall offer the Levites before the LORD for an offering of the children of Israel, that they may execute the service of the LORD. 

13  And thou shalt set the Levites before Aaron, and before his sons, and offer them for an offering unto the LORD.
14  Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

For liturgical service.....
15  And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.
16  For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.
 

A minister 3011 λειτουργός leitourgos li-toorg-os’

Pauls priestly office of minister of Christ to the nations...........

Ministering 2418 in the tabernacle

2418 ἱερουργέω hierourgeo hee-er-oorg-eh’-o

from a compound of 2411 and the base of 2041; v; TDNT- 3:251,349; {See TDNT 325}

2411 ἱερόν hieron hee-er-on’

from 2413; n n; TDNT-3:230,349; {See TDNT 325}

AV-temple 71; 71

Ro 15:16  That I should be the minister <3011> of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering <2418> the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. {offering up: or, sacrificing }

Like what is spoken of here? Even from among the nations will be taken for Levites and priests

Jer 66:20  And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. {litters: or, coaches }
21  And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Anne2

[Fidei Defensor]

25 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Yes, as high priest.

 

The model, or reference to these things as found in the law. 

A Gift to Aaron and sons for the service ( liturgy) in the tabernacle.....

Nu 8:19  And I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the children of Israel, to do the service of the children of Israel in the tabernacle of the congregation, and to make an atonement for the children of Israel: that there be no plague among the children of Israel, when the children of Israel come nigh unto the sanctuary. {a gift: Heb. given }
Nu 18:6  And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you they are given as a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Nu 18:7  Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest’s office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest’s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
 

They are also spoken of as an offering

 

Nu 8:11  And Aaron shall offer the Levites before the LORD for an offering of the children of Israel, that they may execute the service of the LORD. 

13  And thou shalt set the Levites before Aaron, and before his sons, and offer them for an offering unto the LORD.
14  Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

For liturgical service.....
15  And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.
16  For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.
 

A minister 3011 λειτουργός leitourgos li-toorg-os’

Pauls priestly office as Apostle to the Gentiles...........

Ro 15:16  That I should be the minister <3011> of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified. 

 

 

He is more than High Priest, He is the Bridegroom (John 3:29, Mark 2;19-20) and we The Bride of Christ (Revelation 19:7-9, Revelation 21:2, Isaiah 54:5, 2 Corinthians 11:2). We are to intimately know (ginosko, epignosko) Jesus in personal relationship (John 17:3, Philippians 3:8). He is not some distant priest, but is close and near to us, living inside us (Colossians 1:27, Ephesians 3:17), and we in Him (1 John 4:15, Romans 8:1). 

The Law is obsolete, an old covenant, “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13)

The Law is fulfilled in Christ: 

“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:3-4)

Because the Law is the power of sin: 

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 15:56-57) 

Minster means: attend to the needs of (someone) 

Which fits with Jesus saying “you shall be called servants,” (Matthew 23:11, Mark 9:35)

To Minister is to Serve one another. 

Its not a title. Jesus forbade such titles, “But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called teachers, for you have one teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (Matthew 23:8-12) 

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

He is more than High Priest, He is the Bridegroom (John 3:29, Mark 2;19-20) and we The Bride of Christ (Revelation 19:7-9, Revelation 21:2, Isaiah 54:5, 2 Corinthians 11:2). We are to intimately know (ginosko, epignosko) Jesus in personal relationship (John 17:3, Philippians 3:8). He is not some distant priest, but is close and near to us, living inside us (Colossians 1:27, Ephesians 3:17), and we in Him (1 John 4:15, Romans 8:1). 

 

Distant priest? Now you bring up bridegroom? I gave you the pattern and shadow which scripture provides. I specifically brought into the discussion the Levites being a gift, an offering, a sacrifice as well as the term liturgy into the discussion to distinguish between the work of the temple ministers INSIDE the temple/tabernacle of God, as you brought that idea up as well (ie we are the temple). The term liturgy is distinct in the Greek old testament, and carried through in the new. It is so, because the old was for a pattern, a shadow. 

 

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

The Law is obsolete, an old covenant, “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13)

Nobody is arguing this point. The scriptures are for our understanding of the new

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

The Law is fulfilled in Christ: 

Nobody is saying it is not! 

We were discussing priesthood, tabernacle ministry and ministers within the temple/tabernacle. But you have decided to not address that.

The only Protestant church that has maintained the distinction of liturgical ministration as "priestly" is the Anglicans. The rest I fear are following after the notion of Rabbinic Judaism and the synagogue model and it's attitude. Not much new under the sun.

Rebellion of Korah..... All equal in holiness...........

Num 16:1  Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
2  And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
3  And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?

9  Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them?
10  And he hath brought thee near to him, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee: and seek ye the priesthood also?
 

Jude 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

I am not saying I agree with all that historical Catholicism says. But certainly, I do believe Protestantism has lost something along the way. Respect for offices, Anglicanism has maintained valid orders. Speaking evil of such notions is not good IMO. How ironic you brought ideas of office of priestly service (liturgy), in speaking of Rabbi's. It is your model.

Paul never did such a thing. He acknowledged the "office" of such things. Rabbinic Judaism poo pooed this when the temple was destroyed.

Ac 23:5  Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Anne2
clarification

[Fidei Defensor]

3 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Distant priest? Now you bring up bridegroom? I gave you the pattern and shadow which scripture provides. I specifically brought into the discussion the Levites being a gift, an offering, a sacrifice as well as the term liturgy into the discussion to distinguish between the work of the temple ministers INSIDE the temple/tabernacle of God, as you brought that idea up as well (ie we are the temple). The term liturgy is distinct in the Greek old testament, and carried through in the new. It is so, because the old was for a pattern, a shadow. 

 

Nobody is arguing this point. The scriptures are for our understanding of the new

Nobody is saying it is not! 

We were discussing priesthood, tabernacle ministry and ministers within the temple/tabernacle. But you have decided to not address that.

The only Protestant church that has maintained the distinction of liturgical ministration as "priestly" is the Anglicans. The rest I fear are following after the notion of Rabbinic Judaism and the synagogue model and it's attitude. Not much new under the sun.

Rebellion of Korah..... All equal in holiness...........

Num 16:1  Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
2  And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
3  And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?

9  Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them?
10  And he hath brought thee near to him, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee: and seek ye the priesthood also?
 

Jude 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

I am not saying I agree with all that historical Catholicism says. But certainly, I do believe Protestantism has lost something along the way. Respect for offices, Anglicanism has maintained valid orders. Speaking evil of such notions is not good IMO. How ironic you brought ideas of office of priestly service (liturgy), in speaking of Rabbi's. It is your model.

Paul never did such a thing. He acknowledged the "office" of such things. Rabbinic Judaism poo pooed this when the temple was destroyed.

Ac 23:5  Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

 

 

 

 

Well I believe in priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6). I made the case in an earlier post that Constantine rebuilt the priestly caste that dominates liturgical churches.
 

I brought up the Bridegroom to make clear Jesus is not just The High Priest, people read this thread as visitors and members who may not know these truths, I wanted to make that clear Jesus is not just a Priest to us Christians. 
 

So you do you believe in Liturgical Priesthood then? Where does it say in Scripture that the Apostles or their disciples called themselves priests exclusively? They do call themselves and all believers priests, but that is different than the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and other church models of liturgical priests. 
 

Rabbi my model?  I have quoted Jesus saying “be not called Rabbi,” (Matthew 23:8) and I am simply sticking with God Breathed Scriptures (Sola Scriptura, 2 Timothy 3:16). Rabbis do not stick to Scripture alone, they trust in The Torah, The Talmud (commentaries), some in them in The Midrash (mystical books, Kabala) and all of them in Holy Tradition. Comparing my method to Rabbis is unfounded. My method is more Martin Luther, and Pauline (St. Paul). 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Fidei Defensor