Adam- Gentile or Jew

[Anne2]

23 hours ago, Starise said:

Sarah had reached a place where she thought she needed to do something to make God's promise happen. She had determined she would not have a child, so she decided to do what she could to have a child through her servant.

 

No such idea is presented of Sarah in scripture. Here is what is taught about that very incident

1 Pet 3:5  For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

She was obedient, he was her Lord.

6  Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Her Lord also being old

Ge 18:12  Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

Abraham named him, he laughs
Ge 21:3  And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

Sarah even confirms God made her laugh.

Gen 21:6  And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me.

It is obvious from the above scripture, Sarah's laughter was not due to her faithlessness. Rather the thought of God waiting to give her favor of a Child after menopause, and after Abraham himself was so old. 

Rom 19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:

No different than winning a trillion dollars and laughing and saying I just cannot believe this! It does not mean you don't believe you won the money, you know you did.
 

Those two seed and two covenants were by God's design. Not some mistake made out of faithlessness on either of their parts.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

36 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

 

No such idea is presented of Sarah in scripture. Here is what is taught about that very incident

1 Pet 3:5  For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

She was obedient, he was her Lord.

6  Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Her Lord also being old

Ge 18:12  Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

Abraham named him, he laughs
Ge 21:3  And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

Sarah even confirms God made her laugh.

Gen 21:6  And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me.

It is obvious from the above scripture, Sarah's laughter was not due to her faithlessness. Rather the thought of God waiting to give her favor of a Child after menopause, and after Abraham himself was so old. 

Rom 19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:

No different than winning a trillion dollars and laughing and saying I just cannot believe this! It does not mean you don't believe you won the money, you know you did.
 

Those two seed and two covenants were by God's design. Not some mistake made out of faithlessness on either of their parts.

1Peter 3:6 We are her daughters, Just as Paul teaches our Mother in Gal 3:26.

Gal 3:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. {covenants: or, testaments } {Sinai: Gr. Sina }
25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. {answereth to: or, is in the same rank with }
26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
 

It was all by his will, and intent. For an allegory, of the covenants made with Abraham. It is not a BOO BOO of man.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Anne2

[Starise]

49 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

 

No such idea is presented of Sarah in scripture. Here is what is taught about that very incident

1 Pet 3:5  For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

She was obedient, he was her Lord.

6  Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Her Lord also being old

Ge 18:12  Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

Abraham named him, he laughs
Ge 21:3  And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

Sarah even confirms God made her laugh.

Gen 21:6  And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me.

It is obvious from the above scripture, Sarah's laughter was not due to her faithlessness. Rather the thought of God waiting to give her favor of a Child after menopause, and after Abraham himself was so old. 

Rom 19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:

No different than winning a trillion dollars and laughing and saying I just cannot believe this! It does not mean you don't believe you won the money, you know you did.
 

Those two seed and two covenants were by God's design. Not some mistake made out of faithlessness on either of their parts.

My question here would be, why laugh and then deny it if it was honest? Denial signifies she covered something up. Was it embarrassment then? Why cloak your feelings like this? Possibly this was not a skeptical laugh, maybe it was more of a comical thing for her to think of having a baby in advanced years. Some people laugh when they are nervous as a coping mechanism.

I once knew a couple who had a child and the wife was 55 years old at the time. While this is very rare. It sometimes happens.

I'm not going to say one way or the other because I don't really know and I don't personally think we have enough scriptural basis to prove it. 

We could take anything that seems illogical, let's just say God told me I will live to be 102. Given my current situation this isn't likely at all. If I KNEW for sure it was God, I would have no inclination to laugh about it. I might be a more like Moses and ask God if He was sure He has the right guy. Moses didn't feel he was qualified to speak and lead a huge group of people. I see Sarah similar. Her response was to laugh and then deny it to God. We can't really parse it any other way. The fact that she asked the question, "can a woman like myself have a child?" indicates she was grappling with it. Not laughing because she was confident. If you don't agree I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

God takes all of man's MISTAKES and uses them in His plans. This is what I think happened in this case.

Men make BOO BOOs. God uses them. Hagar's descendants are modern day Muslims. Hagar's lineage has resulted in a centuries long rivalry between Israel and the Arabs. The very people who want to see Israel eliminated. God will use this as well.

[Anne2]

35 minutes ago, Starise said:

My question here would be, why laugh and then deny it if it was honest?

She spoke this "within herself". But God heard her thoughts. If she would have been speaking to God she never would have behaved in irreverent manner "if in his very presence" keeping her decorum so to speak. Being respectful in his presence. We see this in real life. 

From what it says about Sarah, God did not speak to her, but to her husband Abraham. She was obedient to what Abraham, told her. In this instance, she happened to over hear God talking to her husband/lord.

I cannot understand why you would think the two covenants were not the intent of God? Abraham took Hagar because God had kept her from bearing. Abraham did not say, oh no, he opened your womb to give me a child by you. Sarah was not promised a Child at that time Abraham was.

I think scripture gives evidence contrary to what you say.

She declared He made her laugh and all who hear it would laugh. Isaac was named he laughs. Also You are attributing this Character in the text concerning Hagar. She didn't laugh at Abraham at all.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Anne2

[Starise]

Ok well I'm not going to go round and round with you over it. I think Sarah had her doubts in the beginning. If she had known she was going to be a mother I don't think she would have used her hand maid. 

I still believe Sarah jumped ahead of God's initial plan. I believe it's a good study into the way God can meld any action to His inevitable outcome.

He as a plan for a plan for a plan for a plan.

I would be interested to hear some other thoughts on this. It does play into Jew/Gentile ideas. Hagar was Egyptian  Making her children 1/2 Jewish.

Hagar had VALUE as a human being. This was relayed from God Himself to her in that He called her by name and in a respectful caring way. She was probably feeling pretty low before this being sent away into the wilderness. Message- God also cares about Gentiles. Gentiles are not outcasts.

It is interesting that in the Bible Timothy was also a half Jew, yet the Lord used him mightily.

God's angel directed Hagar to return to her masters yet again with this message about her child-

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    toward all his brothers.”

Modern day Arabs. Does not their religion teach they are to fight all who oppose the God they call Allah? 

That's pretty much everyone that isn't them. How very true these words were." his hand will be against everyone".

Peace in the middle east? Only by God Himself.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Starise

[Anne2]

On 5/30/2022 at 4:43 PM, Starise said:

Ok well I'm not going to go round and round with you over it.

No reason to go round and round. Just opinions is all. Sarah did not know she was going to be a mother from her own womb, precisely because God had not told her so yet. She distinctly said, the Lord had kept her barren. She expected to have a child, just not according to the promise of that coming from her own womb.

Gen 16:2  And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her.  And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

IMO, when looking at this scripture you cannot leave out this

 When Hagar attempted rise to challenge Sarah' status,  she went to her husband .

Sarah acted in faith to what Abraham her Lord had told her.... Let God Judge between you and me.

5  And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.
6  But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.

Abraham confirmed Hagar was indeed her servant, and Sarah was her mistress (female Lord), nothing had changed.