The "Great Multitude" and "Great Tribulation" of Revelation 7:9-17

[Keras]

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

Try this,

Looking at Daniel chs. 2 & 7, what would be showing the trib period?

Wouldn't the trib period be the entire time of the iron in Dan. 2 and the 4th beast nation of Dan. 7?

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The trib period lasts from the beginning of the iron in 63 BC to the end of the toes.

Jesus, John the Baptist, and the apostles all lived during the trib period.

The "great trib" was after 70 AD when Israel was scattered into the gentile nations.

They couldn't say Rome in the NT letters, but the children of Israel would know who the iron 4th beast was that followed the Greek brass period.

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Matt 24, is parallel to the seals, but the 6th seal and parts of Matt 24 are about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and are not future.

They are about Jerusalem and the children of Israel and not the gentile material planet earth.

I do not buy this idea, it's preterism and leaves us without a clue about our future. Revelation 1:1 says Jesus shows His servants what is to come.  Nothing in Revelation 6:12 to Rev 19:10, can be made to fit in the first Century. 

[abcdef]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

I do not buy this idea, it's preterism

Brother Keras,

Preterists believe that Jesus walked on this planet, died, and was resurrected. Do you believe that also? Oh no, that is preterism. Maybe you shouldn't believe it, because that is what preterists believe.

Preterists believe that the Law came through Moses. Do you believe that? Oh no, that is a preterist teaching. Maybe you should not believe it because preterists teach that.

Get a grip brother. Every passage should be evaluated on it's own merit and not automatically rejected because preterists or some other theory teaches it.

I'm not pretrib, but I don't automatically reject something just because pretrib teaches it. Pretrib has some truth also.

Are you well studied in the preterist theories and their interpretation of passages?

If you were, then you would know that what I am saying is beyond preterism.

 

2 hours ago, Keras said:

and leaves us without a clue about our future.

Actually, knowing the difference between what is past and what is future defines the details of the timelines.

If you are looking for signs that have already been fulfilled, then you will not see the future signs clearly. The signs that you are looking for will have past 1900 years ago.

So what is past and what is future? Jesus has not come for the Pentecost kingdom of Israel yet, so that is still future.

The trouble/tribulation of the children of Israel ended in 1967 when Jerusalem was restored and the times of the gentiles ended.

 

2 hours ago, Keras said:

Revelation 1:1 says Jesus shows His servants what is to come. 

In Rev 1:19, Jesus tells John to, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter,".

So then, where does John write, "the things which thou hast seen"? 

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Jesus shows the children of Israel what is future to 96 AD ish, but He also shows the past, leading up to that future.

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Do the verses contradict each other? Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:19? Or are they in agreement?

 

2 hours ago, Keras said:

Nothing in Revelation 6:12 to Rev 19:10, can be made to fit in the first Century. 

I'm going to disagree. Several passages can be shown to be taking place in the 1st century.

Briefly, the multitude and the trib are 2 examples.

The multitude and 144,000 were resurrected with Jesus in 33 AD.

The trouble/trib began in 63 BC and ended in 1967. (1967, not preterism)

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The 6th seal is the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

This is confirmed by Rev 6:16 being the fulfillment of Lk 23:30.

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The 7 trumpets tell what happens to the unbelieving children of Israel after 70 AD.

Edited January 14, 2023 by abcdef

[Keras]

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

If you were, then you would know that what I am saying is beyond preterism.

I do not deny the great work that Jesus did. 

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

The trouble/tribulation of the children of Israel ended in 1967 when Jerusalem was restored and the times of the gentiles ended.

Who are the children of Israel?  The descendants of all 12 sons of Jacob? The Jews only represent Judah and Benjamin.  The 10 tribes of the House of Israel, remains scattered among the nations and is as many as the sands of the sea. 

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

Actually, knowing the difference between what is past and what is future defines the details of the timelines.

I have read many books on ancient history. It is perfectly evident that what is told to us in many Bible Prophesies, remains to be fulfilled. The cosmic events, for example. 

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

The 7 trumpets tell what happens to the unbelieving children of Israel after 70 AD.

What we are told about the 7 Trumpets, bears no relation to events of the 1st Century. 

[Diaste]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:11 PM, WilliamL said:

The comparable events in the time of the Exodus, from the Passover AD of Egypt (see below),through the wilderness GT, to the Divine Appearance of God on Sinai, took 53 days.

Exo 11:6 ‘Then there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again.

Are you likening Exodus 11:6 to Daniel 12:1 and Matt 24:21? 

The cry in Exodus goes up because of the slain first born of Egypt. That isn't the same as GT testing the church. 

The "Passover AD"? What is that?

Are you saying the 'wilderness GT' is the 40 years of wandering or the time the Jews left Egypt till they reached Sinai? 

Interestingly https://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-travel-times-distances-days.htm says the trip took 47 days. That could be off a couple days. Is this a parallel to Daniel 12:11-12?

[Babbler]

Revelation was written in two parts. The time of Nero(666), the 7-Headed Beast (Rome City of Seven Hills), Ten Horns (Roman Armies divided by tens) 7 Diadems (7 provinces). The second part is the time of Domitian the 8th King, which became 10 Diadems. Rome gained a province and two split. Using Revelation for prophecy is an error.  Jesus did not know when he would come back , only that it would be the last day. The biggest inclination of the future is 2 Thessalonians 2 the first paragraph. We are at the early stages of it. How long it will take? who knows but a new temple is on the way. 

[abcdef]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:11 AM, Keras said:

I do not deny the great work that Jesus did. 

 

On 1/14/2023 at 1:11 AM, Keras said:

Who are the children of Israel?  The descendants of all 12 sons of Jacob? The Jews only represent Judah and Benjamin.  The 10 tribes of the House of Israel, remains scattered among the nations and is as many as the sands of the sea.

The tribes that return to restore Jerusalem, have already been assembled in Jerusalem and taken control of Jerusalem, ending the times of the gentiles trampling, Lk 21:24, 1967.

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I am not exactly sure what you are expecting to happen in the gathering of Israel to restore Jerusalem.

Should we be expecting that every single person worldwide who has even a little DNA from father Jacob to suddenly be transported to Israel?

Yes, we have people who are Israel still living in the USA. Will they also be transported to Israel so that their are no longer any people of Israel living abroad anywhere?

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The central point is that Jerusalem is now restored to control of Israel. That is the anchor of the timeline for we who are alive now. Prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes. (But few are aware of it, because of the spirit of confusion)

It does not seem to be required, that every single person with the DNA from Jacob, to have presence in Israel, to fulfill the restoration of Jerusalem prophecy. Lk 21:24

The prophecy that we need to focus on, in our present time, is the restoration of Jerusalem, 1967.

Once we have determined the places in prophecy (Revelation) that refer to the 1967 event, then we can focus on the events that are shown to happen after Jerusalem is restored.

Those are the events that we are facing now.

 

On 1/14/2023 at 1:11 AM, Keras said:

I have read many books on ancient history. It is perfectly evident that what is told to us in many Bible Prophesies, remains to be fulfilled. The cosmic events, for example. 

We have spoken briefly about this before.

Some cosmic prophecies are literal, and some are symbolic and have already taken place.

Most are showing battles between armies and the fall of different nations.

What does the sun symbolize? Light? Heat? Knowledge? God's light of knowledge, the revealing of the true path through the Word of God, the scriptures? 

If the sun is symbolized as being darkened, does that show the knowledge of God being darkened? God's light of salvation being diminished? The diminishing of access to the scriptures?

What do literal trees symbolize? People, Israel, as the fig and olive? Cedars of Lebanon?

The Bible shows literal events, but even the literal has symbolic meaning.

What is the symbolism of the literal ark of the covenant? Jesus? The ark is a symbol of Jesus and the covenant of Israel with God.

The ark is literal, but to diminish or disregard the symbolism attached to it, is to dim the light of the knowledge of God and His covenant.

If we go to the Revelation and say that the entities and events shown are without symbolic meaning, then we are not getting the entire meaning of the events shown. We are diminishing, dimming, the message.

 

On 1/14/2023 at 1:11 AM, Keras said:

What we are told about the 7 Trumpets, bears no relation to events of the 1st Century. 

The 7 trumpets tell about the unbelieving broken branches of flesh Israel after 70 AD.

They are showing the withdrawing of God's blessings of covenant protection on the broken flesh branches.

Understand, 70 AD Jerusalem fell because Israel, for the most part, rejected the new covenant. It should be considered that if Israel had accepted the new covenant, then Jerusalem would not have fallen.

When Israel turns away from God, He brings armies to defeat them and Jerusalem.

When Israel turns to God, the people of Israel and Jerusalem are protected from the gentile armies, as history shows.

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The 7 trumpets are from 70 AD, continual, until our present time, and beyond, until Jesus comes for the kingdom at the seventh trumpet.

John sees the trumpets being blown literally, but it is what the meaning of the trumpets being blown, that is the message.

The trumpets being blown show the beginning of events in relation to the unbelieving broken flesh branches of Israel. 

In the passage about the trumpets, the restoration of Jerusalem in 1967 is indicated by the 6th trumpet armies attacking from east to west, headed for Jerusalem. (Happening now)

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The symbols themselves are not the subject. It is what the symbols represent, that is the subject.

Rev 9:17- 19, Shows the armies headed for Jerusalem.

The description of the horsemen and horses are symbolic. The symbols describe the spirits and spiritual characteristics of the entities. 

The horses do not literally have fire coming out of their mouths. It is the anti-Israel doctrine that they speak, from Satan. 

[Keras]

5 hours ago, abcdef said:

The 7 trumpets are from 70 AD, continual, until our present time

It is the first five seals, that Jesus opened when He Ascended to heaven, that have been operational since the first Century. Proved by the Christian martyrs.

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will take place in the final 3 1/2 years of this age. They are directed against the people who have taken the mark of the beast.

5 hours ago, abcdef said:

The horses do not literally have fire coming out of their mouths. It is the anti-Israel doctrine that they speak, from Satan. 

 Common sense is that those fiery horses represent modern weapons of war.

[abcdef]

17 hours ago, Keras said:

It is the first five seals, that Jesus opened when He Ascended to heaven,

Jesus opened all the seals in front of John in the 96 AD ish time period.

After His ascension, yes, but not until John was caught up through the door from the island of Patmos in 85 -96 AD ish.

If Jesus opened the 5 seals in 33 AD, then John was not in heaven to see it.

 

17 hours ago, Keras said:

that have been operational since the first Century.

If the first 5 seals have been operational since the first century, who are the seals directed at? Who are the receivers of the things mentioned in them? 

The children of Israel or the planet?

 

17 hours ago, Keras said:

Proved by the Christian martyrs.

The 5th seal martyrs, the multitude, and the 144000 are not Christians.

They are all OT saints from the 33 AD resurrection of Jesus and are seen with Jesus and John in 96 AD.

They are all saved by the blood of Jesus by faith and grace.

 

17 hours ago, Keras said:

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets

The 7 trumpets timeline is from 70 AD until Jesus comes for the kingdom, soon.

The 7 trumpets shown are against the unbelieving broken branches of flesh Israel, exclusively, and not the planet earth, of the gentile nations.

The Bible centers on the children of Israel primarily, believing and unbelieving, and should not be expanded to envelop the planet and gentile nations without reason.

The tribulation of the Revelation period centers on the children of Israel and ends when Jerusalem is restored.

 

17 hours ago, Keras said:

and 7 Bowls

The 7 bowls/plagues run parallel to the trumpets, from 70 AD until Jesus comes for the kingdom.

The bowls center on the Roman beast nation. 

The same nation as the iron in the statue of Dan. 2, and 4th beast of Dan. 7.

 

17 hours ago, Keras said:

will take place in the final 3 1/2 years of this age.

3 1/2 times.

The 3 1/2 times, 42 months, and 1260 days in the Rev. are symbolic numbers and not literal.

They represent the time from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored.

They have ended in 1967.

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The first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until the great scattering of 70 AD., Dan 12:7.

The second 3 1/2 times is shown in the Rev. and is from 70 AD until 1967. 

The 7 times is the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2, divided into 2 parts of 3 1/2 times each.

 

17 hours ago, Keras said:

They are directed against the people who have taken the mark of the beast.

The mark of the beast is the mark of Caesar and Rome.

The same nation as the iron in the Dan. 2 statue and the 4th beast of Dan. 7.

 

17 hours ago, Keras said:

 Common sense is that those fiery horses represent modern weapons of war.

In Rev 11:5, the 2 witnesses also have fire coming out of their mouths, is that weapons of war also? The same as the horses of Rev 9:17?

What is the symbolism of the fire from the mouths of the 2 witnesses?

[abcdef]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

Revelation was written in two parts.

Two parts? Do you mean it is written at 2 different times? Or that there are 2 different sections?

I see at least a few different sections and divisions.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

The time of Nero(666),

The 666 is the number of Caesar worship and of every Caesar, and not just one or 2 Caesars.

600....Satan

060....Rome

006....Caesar

666.... The number of a man who envelops all the powers, Caesar.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

the 7-Headed Beast (Rome City of Seven Hills),

The 7 headed beast city is Rome.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

Ten Horns (Roman Armies divided by tens

The 10 horns are nations that follow the Roman Empire in the timeline.

They are the same nations as the 10 toes in the statue in Dan. 2 and the 10 horns in the 4th beast of Dan. 7.

They appear after the Roman empire is divided and falls and not during the time of the Roman Empire's existence.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

) 7 Diadems (7 provinces).

The 7 heads represent the lifetime of the Roman Empire.

When the 7th head dies, the the Roman Empire dies, is ended, 476 AD.

The statement that 5 have fallen and one is Rev 17:10, shows that the 7 heads are not provinces, because that would mean that 5 provinces of the Roman Empire had fallen by John's time of 96 AD ish. 

 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

The second part is the time of Domitian the 8th King, which became 10 Diadems. Rome gained a province and two split.

Rev 17:11 says that the 8th head lasts until perdition.

Domitian died years ago and perdition is yet to come.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

Using Revelation for prophecy is an error.

The description of the last judgment and the kingdom in heaven is yet to come isn't it? Rev 20:11-15, & chs 21 & 22.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

  Jesus did not know when he would come back ,

After Jesus ascended to the Father He received ALL power in heaven and earth, Matt 28:18.

If He didn't know the exact time of the resurrection then, then He didn't receive "all power".

He showed John the events leading up to the coming for the kingdom and beyond in the Revelation.

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The time that He was referring to in the gospels was about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

After the 33 AD Pentecost kingdom came, Israel had to opportunity to accept the gospel kingdom. Had they done so, then Jerusalem would not have fallen, for perhaps many years beyond 70 AD.

They had to have opportunity, they could have accepted Jesus and the gospel kingdom, but would they? They didn't, but they had to have the opportunity.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

only that it would be the last day. The biggest inclination of the future is 2 Thessalonians 2 the first paragraph.

Caesar and Rome were revealed to be the Antichrist and the iron nation of Dan. 2 when Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Babbler said:

We are at the early stages of it. How long it will take? who knows but a new temple is on the way. 

The things that were prophecy in the gospels were fulfilled in the 37 AD - 70 AD time period.

 The AOD was fulfilled when Titus sacrificed a pig on the burned out temple altar.

[Babbler]

Written in two different time periods, that of Nero and that of Domitian.

Written in Hebrew Caesar Neron (GSR NRWN) Gematria numerical equals 666. The letters to churches was added when the second part was added. Jesus said he would come back on the last day. But he didn't know when that would be and only the Father knows.

    The Kabbalist Jews do not believe Christ has come yet. They believe he will come when we are either all saints or all sinners. Since we can't all be saints their goal is to make us all sinners. Hitler was the child of James Rothschild, they got the Balfour Declaration, and started the Kibbutzes to prepare for the Jews from the holocaust. Certain Zionist predicted a couple million would die before the holocaust even started. 

When they seat the Lawless One in their coming temple they will have succeeded in fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 2