Are You A Jacob Or an Esau, A Cain or an Able, A David or a Saul ?

[Starise]

There seems to be a difference in the outcomes of many biblical characters. The so called "good" characters of the bible sinned, The Abrahams, The Davids,  All of these people paid a steep price for their sins, yet after it was all said and done they continued to have the favor of God.

Others seem to have fallen into a deep hole never to regain their original stature with the Lord. The Cains, the Esaus, the Sauls. They either never had the positional benefits of God or lost them along the way.

Why does one man fall, repent and get restored, while another man can't seem to ever get back on track? Maybe the simple answer is repentance, yet in many cases it seems men truly repent but loose the favor of God. Do you believe some men can go so far as to loose God's favor forever, even when they make attempts to repent? 

Saul is one example of a man who forever has that negative stigma attached to him as a man who failed to follow God's instructions. Ham seems to have been forever cursed and shunned for one foolish deed. The bible describes Esau as a man God hated, a man who made at least a few bad judgement calls that seems to have affected him for life. Do you see these people as beyond the blessings of God? If so, why?

[Alive]

17 minutes ago, Starise said:

Do you see these people as beyond the blessings of God? If so, why?

The OP ask one question in the title and another in the final sentence.

The first--I like to think that I haven't thrown spears at a David.

The second---election. He shows Mercy on who He wills.

Rom. 9:15 (NAS20S) For He says to Moses, “ I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” ¹⁶ So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who   runs, but on God who has mercy.

Rom. 9:18 (NAS20S) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

There seems to be a difference in the outcomes of many biblical characters. The so called "good" characters of the bible sinned, The Abrahams, The Davids,  All of these people paid a steep price for their sins, yet after it was all said and done they continued to have the favor of God.

Others seem to have fallen into a deep hole never to regain their original stature with the Lord. The Cains, the Esaus, the Sauls. They either never had the positional benefits of God or lost them along the way.

Why does one man fall, repent and get restored, while another man can't seem to ever get back on track? Maybe the simple answer is repentance, yet in many cases it seems men truly repent but loose the favor of God. Do you believe some men can go so far as to loose God's favor forever, even when they make attempts to repent? 

Saul is one example of a man who forever has that negative stigma attached to him as a man who failed to follow God's instructions. Ham seems to have been forever cursed and shunned for one foolish deed. The bible describes Esau as a man God hated, a man who made at least a few bad judgement calls that seems to have affected him for life. Do you see these people as beyond the blessings of God? If so, why?

Good question to ponder. I will do that. 

[Starise]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

The OP ask one question in the title and another in the final sentence.

The first--I like to think that I haven't thrown spears at a David.

The second---election. He shows Mercy on who He wills.

Rom. 9:15 (NAS20S) For He says to Moses, “ I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” ¹⁶ So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who   runs, but on God who has mercy.

Rom. 9:18 (NAS20S) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Yes I asked several questions in this topic.

Saul did more than throw a spear at David. He disobeyed several of Gods instructions. God's compassion does not depend on you or me as the reference you posted states Rom 9:15. 

Which type of person are you? In an over arching way salvation is for all who will accept. On a more personal level God likes some men and doesn't seem to care for others as much. 

A person's self image probably has a lot to do with how they think God sees them.People who think they are simply wonderful likely think God likes them a lot. People who see themselves for what they really are, they might think God only reluctantly saved them and doesn't really think much of them. Even though this view is probably inaccurate, that person is closer to the right attitude about themselves than the person who believes they are wonderful and have way more good traits than bad ones.

In context Romans chapter 6 I read about Paul who is a Jew grieving over the spiritual state his people 1-8. Further verses indicate a spiritual reflection in how God works in what some may think to be unusual ways. Here is Paul, a man sent to minister to another people not Jewish. Paul, a man who once was on the other side of this battle. He was truly a Jew's Jew. A very educated man of the law in high places before he became Paul. No religious Jew in their right mind would do what Paul did unless God was in it.

Really the whole chapter is an explanation into God's moving in the Gentiles. I read Paul saying God will chose who He decides to choose. His choice was to reject those religious Jews who rejected Christ and take the message of salvation and deliverance to the gentiles. When I read the whole of chapter 6 this is my take away.

I don't see this as so much a statement about individuals as it is a statement about the collective inclusion of a people or persons. The gentiles. In this case Paul is addressing the gentiles in Rome.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

We have the temporary rejection of Israel, verse 31

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

This was because of their religious tunnel vision. They missed the forest for the trees.

So here I think we have an indication for WHY God chose to make unlikely selections among the gentiles.At least, unlikely in the eyes of  Jew.

I see the whole chapter centering on peoples and nations. Not individuals. Implications for individuals? Yes. God opened up the spigot to the rest of the world. I don't see how I could place these verses in a context that would make it seem God Favors some individuals over others unless God puts a man or woman in a place and they don't fulfill their calling or engage in the opposite of their calling, in which case God CHOOSES a replacement to get His work done.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

50 minutes ago, Starise said:

Yes I asked several questions in this topic.

Saul did more than throw a spear at David. He disobeyed several of Gods instructions. God's compassion does not depend on you or me as the reference you posted states Rom 9:15. 

Which type of person are you? In an over arching way salvation is for all who will accept. On a more personal level God likes some men and doesn't seem to care for others as much. 

A person's self image probably has a lot to do with how they think God sees them.People who think they are simply wonderful likely think God likes them a lot. People who see themselves for what they really are, they might think God only reluctantly saved them and doesn't really think much of them. Even though this view is probably inaccurate, that person is closer to the right attitude about themselves than the person who believes they are wonderful and have way more good traits than bad ones.

In context Romans chapter 6 I read about Paul who is a Jew grieving over the spiritual state his people 1-8. Further verses indicate a spiritual reflection in how God works in what some may think to be unusual ways. Here is Paul, a man sent to minister to another people not Jewish. Paul, a man who once was on the other side of this battle. He was truly a Jew's Jew. A very educated man of the law in high places before he became Paul. No religious Jew in their right mind would do what Paul did unless God was in it.

Really the whole chapter is an explanation into God's moving in the Gentiles. I read Paul saying God will chose who He decides to choose. His choice was to reject those religious Jews who rejected Christ and take the message of salvation and deliverance to the gentiles. When I read the whole of chapter 6 this is my take away.

I don't see this as so much a statement about individuals as it is a statement about the collective inclusion of a people or persons. The gentiles. In this case Paul is addressing the gentiles in Rome.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

We have the temporary rejection of Israel, verse 31

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

This was because of their religious tunnel vision. They missed the forest for the trees.

So here I think we have an indication for WHY God chose to make unlikely selections among the gentiles.At least, unlikely in the eyes of  Jew.

I see the whole chapter centering on peoples and nations. Not individuals. Implications for individuals? Yes. God opened up the spigot to the rest of the world. I don't see how I could place these verses in a context that would make it seem God Favors some individuals over others unless God puts a man or woman in a place and they don't fulfill their calling or engage in the opposite of their calling, in which case God CHOOSES a replacement to get His work done.

 

I can't say that I like what I read, but I cannot speak against it. 

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

Why does one man fall, repent and get restored, while another man can't seem to ever get back on track? Maybe the simple answer is repentance,

We need to look at the parable of the tax collector which has to do with attitude if that is the right word do use. The Pharisees felt justified before God and it turns out he was deceived. 

[JohnR7]

9 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

They missed the forest for the trees.

People try to understand the teaching of Paul without looking to see that Paul is quoting David and we have to go back and look to see what David is teaching us about the law of God.  The law was give for our benefit and our well being.  This is why David is able to tell us about his love for the law of God. 

Psalm 119 97 Oh, how I love Your law! All day long it is my meditation. 98 Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, for they are always with me. 99 I have more insight than all my teachers, for Your testimonies are my meditation.

[Alive]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Yes I asked several questions in this topic.

Saul did more than throw a spear at David. He disobeyed several of Gods instructions. God's compassion does not depend on you or me as the reference you posted states Rom 9:15. 

Which type of person are you? In an over arching way salvation is for all who will accept. On a more personal level God likes some men and doesn't seem to care for others as much. 

A person's self image probably has a lot to do with how they think God sees them.People who think they are simply wonderful likely think God likes them a lot. People who see themselves for what they really are, they might think God only reluctantly saved them and doesn't really think much of them. Even though this view is probably inaccurate, that person is closer to the right attitude about themselves than the person who believes they are wonderful and have way more good traits than bad ones.

In context Romans chapter 6 I read about Paul who is a Jew grieving over the spiritual state his people 1-8. Further verses indicate a spiritual reflection in how God works in what some may think to be unusual ways. Here is Paul, a man sent to minister to another people not Jewish. Paul, a man who once was on the other side of this battle. He was truly a Jew's Jew. A very educated man of the law in high places before he became Paul. No religious Jew in their right mind would do what Paul did unless God was in it.

Really the whole chapter is an explanation into God's moving in the Gentiles. I read Paul saying God will chose who He decides to choose. His choice was to reject those religious Jews who rejected Christ and take the message of salvation and deliverance to the gentiles. When I read the whole of chapter 6 this is my take away.

I don't see this as so much a statement about individuals as it is a statement about the collective inclusion of a people or persons. The gentiles. In this case Paul is addressing the gentiles in Rome.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

We have the temporary rejection of Israel, verse 31

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

This was because of their religious tunnel vision. They missed the forest for the trees.

So here I think we have an indication for WHY God chose to make unlikely selections among the gentiles.At least, unlikely in the eyes of  Jew.

I see the whole chapter centering on peoples and nations. Not individuals. Implications for individuals? Yes. God opened up the spigot to the rest of the world. I don't see how I could place these verses in a context that would make it seem God Favors some individuals over others unless God puts a man or woman in a place and they don't fulfill their calling or engage in the opposite of their calling, in which case God CHOOSES a replacement to get His work done.

 

Hey Chewi--lots of stuff in your reply that I don't want to reply to now, but I will expalin why I chose to answer as I did using Saul.

Many years ago, I learned a specific lesson about Saul and David. Granted there is a great deal to learn from both of their lives, but again to focus on one.

Saul and David were both men that were given authority. When Saul felt his authority threatened, he threw spears. When David's authority was threatened, he responded diffently. He knew his authority was granted by God and so put himself and that authority right back in God's hands. David did not throw spears. This was an important lesson to me in how to behave from either end of those spears. I thank my Lord for the lesson. A very important kind of lesson one does not forget.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Hey Chewi--lots of stuff in your reply that I don't want to reply to now, but I will expalin why I chose to answer as I did using Saul.

Many years ago, I learned a specific lesson about Saul and David. Granted there is a great deal to learn from both of their lives, but again to focus on one.

Saul and David were both men that were given authority. When Saul felt his authority threatened, he threw spears. When David's authority was threatened, he responded diffently. He knew his authority was granted by God and so put himself and that authority right back in God's hands. David did not throw spears. This was an important lesson to me in how to behave from either end of those spears. I thank my Lord for the lesson. A very important kind of lesson one does not forget.

Saul was a warrior, well trained in the art of using the spear...

And someone may ask? Did Saul missed the target? 

Or is it possible for Saul to miss the target? 

We did not have all the details, the distance of David from Saul, and to what was David was doing at that  time. Was David on his duty to play music to Saul? Was it at a time when Saul was disturbed by something?

The point is that Saul was a lot better by a far cry from David in this specific situation....

One more thing we need to sort out is that Saul did not call David to come and live in his house and be his "medical" "musician", but rather Saul's "physician" must have recommended David...

That takes us whether or not Saul knew about the Anointing of David by Samuel as the choice of their God to give the Kingdom to a "Shepherd" to David. 

And this event took place after the battle with Goliath and the people glorifying David and singing songs about him.

The point is that Saul if he wanted to Kill David he could have done it earlier, in many and different ways, but Saul was not a murderer like David was....and we know about the premeditated murder of Uriah...

The other point is that Saul did not want to kill David, only to scared him, or communicate how or what was thinking about him, frustrated how this Shepard has a glamour about himself, and more praise from the people that they dared to sing songs about him, that glorified David more than glorified himself...

Yes Saul throw the Sword at David but he never intended to kill David, only he express his frustration about the situation...Saul could have kill David in many other ways and no one would know, or he could entrapped him in some situation and caused his death but he did not do it because he could not live with that because he was not a murderer...

Saul loved the animals that he had to go on a journey to find his Father's donkeys and he Saved the cows from the Lord's slaughter, they were a very rare species and could not get himself around to killed them..when he showed them he gave himself a mission to saved them...

To saved the cows became the reason to loose the Kingdom and the Kingdom to be taken from his family...

He disobeyed God to saved them and he hoped that God would approved it because he planned to offer them as a sacrifice to him, and have their offerings for future sacrifices to him, that's how he showd it...in his own self, he loved them when he showed them and they were so unique breed that he could not kill him.

Also Saul did not tried to Killed David and all his family as to wipe off all the successor to the Throne, (David had not children at that time). But David after the death of Saul he did killed everyone of Saul's children the would be rightfull successors to the Throne...He did that on his own, the Lord did not asked him to do it. 

The point is Saul intentionally missed David because he did not have it in him to kill him...perhaps he wish that if David was not alive, many other things will go away...

Saul was tutoring his son Nathan, to be his successor the next King on case something happened to him, even though Saul knew in time about what Samuel had done to anoint David to be the next king, the Kingdom to be taken from his family...but Saul still was tutoring Nathan to fight for his birth right to succeed him as the next King.  

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

7 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

People try to understand the teaching of Paul without looking to see that Paul is quoting David and we have to go back and look to see what David is teaching us about the law of God.  The law was give for our benefit and our well being.  This is why David is able to tell us about his love for the law of God. 

Psalm 119 97 Oh, how I love Your law! All day long it is my meditation. 98 Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, for they are always with me. 99 I have more insight than all my teachers, for Your testimonies are my meditation.

Hello JohnR7, need to bring your attention that the post you quoted it is Starise post and not mine. 

Yes Paul knew about the book of Psalms and knew what David said about the Law...

Paul knew that the Law was good for those who were in the Covenant of Sinai..

 Paul was in the New Covenant and he had Jesus and the Holy Spirit...and Jesus Christ did not give us the Law or the book of Leviticus with the punishments for disobedience in the Sinai Covenant.

Why did you mention David and Paul, as the Law was good for David but not good for Saul who lived after the Cross in the New Covenant.