Are You A Jacob Or an Esau, A Cain or an Able, A David or a Saul ?

[Dennis1209]

Thinking about these questions these verses came to mind:

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Considering Bathsheba & Uriah, David was still a man after God’s own heart. Saul started out as a man of God but fell. Saul once had faith and trust in God but ended up using a sorcerer. I’ve wondered if we will see Saul in heaven?

A New Testament comparison might be Peter & Judas, both fell and we know the story. It is clear to me Peter lost something, was it his discipleship, Salvation, or both? Whichever it was Jesus restored it to him. Both Peter & Judas betrayed the Lord. I lean toward Peter temporarily losing his apostleship.

Judas was despondent and remorseful and threw back the silver, then hung himself. He admitted his guilt and wrongdoing to the wrong people who could not help him. Judas is one of two in the Bible called “the Son of Perdition.”

[creativemechanic]

20 hours ago, Starise said:

There seems to be a difference in the outcomes of many biblical characters. The so called "good" characters of the bible sinned, The Abrahams, The Davids,  All of these people paid a steep price for their sins, yet after it was all said and done they continued to have the favor of God.

Others seem to have fallen into a deep hole never to regain their original stature with the Lord. The Cains, the Esaus, the Sauls. They either never had the positional benefits of God or lost them along the way.

Why does one man fall, repent and get restored, while another man can't seem to ever get back on track? Maybe the simple answer is repentance, yet in many cases it seems men truly repent but loose the favor of God. Do you believe some men can go so far as to loose God's favor forever, even when they make attempts to repent? 

Saul is one example of a man who forever has that negative stigma attached to him as a man who failed to follow God's instructions. Ham seems to have been forever cursed and shunned for one foolish deed. The bible describes Esau as a man God hated, a man who made at least a few bad judgement calls that seems to have affected him for life. Do you see these people as beyond the blessings of God? If so, why?

Its their attitude to falling. When David was corrected about his sins, he quickly repented and God showed mercy. Saul and Cain often got angry, lashed out and remained in their sin.

[creativemechanic]

15 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Saul was a warrior, well trained in the art of using the spear...

And someone may ask? Did Saul missed the target? 

Or is it possible for Saul to miss the target? 

We did not have all the details, the distance of David from Saul, and to what was David was doing at that  time. Was David on his duty to play music to Saul? Was it at a time when Saul was disturbed by something?

The point is that Saul was a lot better by a far cry from David in this specific situation....

One more thing we need to sort out is that Saul did not call David to come and live in his house and be his "medical" "musician", but rather Saul's "physician" must have recommended David...

That takes us whether or not Saul knew about the Anointing of David by Samuel as the choice of their God to give the Kingdom to a "Shepherd" to David. 

And this event took place after the battle with Goliath and the people glorifying David and singing songs about him.

The point is that Saul if he wanted to Kill David he could have done it earlier, in many and different ways, but Saul was not a murderer like David was....and we know about the premeditated murder of Uriah...

The other point is that Saul did not want to kill David, only to scared him, or communicate how or what was thinking about him, frustrated how this Shepard has a glamour about himself, and more praise from the people that they dared to sing songs about him, that glorified David more than glorified himself...

Yes Saul throw the Sword at David but he never intended to kill David, only he express his frustration about the situation...Saul could have kill David in many other ways and no one would know, or he could entrapped him in some situation and caused his death but he did not do it because he could not live with that because he was not a murderer...

Saul loved the animals that he had to go on a journey to find his Father's donkeys and he Saved the cows from the Lord's slaughter, they were a very rare species and could not get himself around to killed them..when he showed them he gave himself a mission to saved them...

To saved the cows became the reason to loose the Kingdom and the Kingdom to be taken from his family...

He disobeyed God to saved them and he hoped that God would approved it because he planned to offer them as a sacrifice to him, and have their offerings for future sacrifices to him, that's how he showd it...in his own self, he loved them when he showed them and they were so unique breed that he could not kill him.

Also Saul did not tried to Killed David and all his family as to wipe off all the successor to the Throne, (David had not children at that time). But David after the death of Saul he did killed everyone of Saul's children the would be rightfull successors to the Throne...He did that on his own, the Lord did not asked him to do it. 

The point is Saul intentionally missed David because he did not have it in him to kill him...perhaps he wish that if David was not alive, many other things will go away...

Saul was tutoring his son Nathan, to be his successor the next King on case something happened to him, even though Saul knew in time about what Samuel had done to anoint David to be the next king, the Kingdom to be taken from his family...but Saul still was tutoring Nathan to fight for his birth right to succeed him as the next King.  

 

thats a whooooooollllllle lot of supposing. Something id advise against in scripture

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, creativemechanic said:

thats a whooooooollllllle lot of supposing. Something id advise against in scripture

I do not like your unfounded comments.  

So what is the scriptures you are referring to? 

Do you have any that can prove that your statement is not accusatory? 

 

[Starise]

5 hours ago, creativemechanic said:

Its their attitude to falling. When David was corrected about his sins, he quickly repented and God showed mercy. Saul and Cain often got angry, lashed out and remained in their sin.

21 hours ago, Alive said:

Saul and David were both men that were given authority. When Saul felt his authority threatened, he threw spears. When David's authority was threatened, he responded diffently. He knew his authority was granted by God and so put himself and that authority right back in God's hands. David did not throw spears. This was an important lesson to me in how to behave from either end of those spears. I thank my Lord for the lesson. A very important kind of lesson one does not forget.

It seems to me God intentionally allowed the wrong man into the kingship to teach His people a lesson. Saul was a tall handsome man and I guess he looked the part of a king. God tried to persuade His people they did not need a king since HE was their king. They would not relent. WE WANT A KING !!!". So he gave them what they thought they wanted, and for a time he seemed like a good fit, but he blatantly disobeyed God on several occasions and never repented of it that anyone has knowledge of.

Meanwhile David was the one his father hesitated to even call in when the prophet came. He apparently did not look like king material and likely not the one his own father would have chosen for the job.

20 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Saul was a warrior, well trained in the art of using the spear...

And someone may ask? Did Saul missed the target? 

Or is it possible for Saul to miss the target? 

We did not have all the details, the distance of David from Saul, and to what was David was doing at that  time. Was David on his duty to play music to Saul? Was it at a time when Saul was disturbed by something?

The point is that Saul was a lot better by a far cry from David in this specific situation....

One more thing we need to sort out is that Saul did not call David to come and live in his house and be his "medical" "musician", but rather Saul's "physician" must have recommended David...

That takes us whether or not Saul knew about the Anointing of David by Samuel as the choice of their God to give the Kingdom to a "Shepherd" to David. 

And this event took place after the battle with Goliath and the people glorifying David and singing songs about him.

The point is that Saul if he wanted to Kill David he could have done it earlier, in many and different ways, but Saul was not a murderer like David was....and we know about the premeditated murder of Uriah...

The other point is that Saul did not want to kill David, only to scared him, or communicate how or what was thinking about him, frustrated how this Shepard has a glamour about himself, and more praise from the people that they dared to sing songs about him, that glorified David more than glorified himself...

Yes Saul throw the Sword at David but he never intended to kill David, only he express his frustration about the situation...Saul could have kill David in many other ways and no one would know, or he could entrapped him in some situation and caused his death but he did not do it because he could not live with that because he was not a murderer...

Saul loved the animals that he had to go on a journey to find his Father's donkeys and he Saved the cows from the Lord's slaughter, they were a very rare species and could not get himself around to killed them..when he showed them he gave himself a mission to saved them...

To saved the cows became the reason to loose the Kingdom and the Kingdom to be taken from his family...

He disobeyed God to saved them and he hoped that God would approved it because he planned to offer them as a sacrifice to him, and have their offerings for future sacrifices to him, that's how he showd it...in his own self, he loved them when he showed them and they were so unique breed that he could not kill him.

Also Saul did not tried to Killed David and all his family as to wipe off all the successor to the Throne, (David had not children at that time). But David after the death of Saul he did killed everyone of Saul's children the would be rightfull successors to the Throne...He did that on his own, the Lord did not asked him to do it. 

The point is Saul intentionally missed David because he did not have it in him to kill him...perhaps he wish that if David was not alive, many other things will go away...

Saul was tutoring his son Nathan, to be his successor the next King on case something happened to him, even though Saul knew in time about what Samuel had done to anoint David to be the next king, the Kingdom to be taken from his family...but Saul still was tutoring Nathan to fight for his birth right to succeed him as the next King.  

 

I agree there are probably many little issues to be found within this one story of David and Saul. To be fair a king's responsibility was a great responsibility and Saul must have managed to do ok other than the times he decided to disobey God. Saul did go after David for his life later on though taking soldiers with him for the task. We read that Saul was troubled of an evil spirit and David's music comforted him.

Anyone who has ever been upended from a job or position, left unappreciated and replaced has probably felt like Saul. Some of that can be pride in a man's life. Saul's main downfall as I see it is he wasn't ready to accept God's decision. He didn't seem to understand that you can't compete with God when He has another plan. He didn't fall back willingly which would have been the more noble thing to do. He continued to manipulate and fight for what he thought should be his when God was saying 'no'.  It is difficult to give things up sometimes. 

5 hours ago, creativemechanic said:

Its their attitude to falling. When David was corrected about his sins, he quickly repented and God showed mercy. Saul and Cain often got angry, lashed out and remained in their sin.

I agree, maybe that's really all there is to it. How would you reconcile Jacob and Esau? They never had a chance to prove anything since God made decisions about them at birth in stating the younger brother would rule over the older. Those of the Calvinist persuasion might say this is proof God saves and curses people even in the womb. I would further argue the strong possibility that the passage in the bible in which God says, Jacob have I love, Esau have I hated has a deeper meaning than the one we immediately see. Since God was looking for a leader to take that bloodline into the future to be the earthly fathers of Jesus, could this have been better said- Jacob have I love, Esau have I hated for this purpose.  ? What purpose ? The purpose of a bloodline for Jesus. The reason I make this statement is because that whole chapter is dealing with God's selection process to bring in the savior of the whole world, and because I don't think God hates anyone. The bible tells us when God created the heavens and the earth He looked and saw this it was all good before the fall of man. Both Jacob and Esau were loved fallen sinful men and God had a plan for ALL men.

Of those two brothers God chose Jacob to for His purposes. 

This brings me to the idea that God might dislike us for a certain calling or purpose. Maybe even HATE the thought of using us for such a purpose, yet be ok with the next person FOR HIS PURPOSES. As with Saul God REJECTED him as king. God was probably very unhappy with Saul, yet Saul could very well be in heaven.

The bible talks of vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor. Vessels meaning men referred to as vessels. Clay vessels all have a specific purpose and I think it's the same for us.

For me one question would be, do we men and women inherently know if we are a specific vessel for honor or dishonor and could a vessel made for dishonor attempt to honor and never meet up to it? I sometimes feel like a dishonorable vessel attempting to be an honorable one.

One theory here is that "honorable" and "dishonorable" don't necessarily need to be exact opposing opposites. There could be an "honorable" classification and then the rest. We had to give them a name so we called them dishonorable instead of average people, with "honorable" being ESPECIALLY CALLED to a SPECIFIC WORK for the Lord, i.e. Jacob and David. 

Those persons referred to as honorable  can still sin, only they have a special function. Those not made in any dedicated way still have an obligation to follow the Lord and can still make a decision for Christ.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Starise