How can the Lord save those who are blinded and hardened?

[debrakay]

This scripture in 2 Peter 3 tells us the Lord is not willing that any should perish.  He wants all to repent and come to him.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Then in John 12 we are told that he has blinded their eyes and harden hearts so that they cannot understand and turn to him for healing.

John 12:40 - He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.

Please help me resolve this dilemma when I hear others say that he wants to save every single person. All people.  The verse in John tells me that all will not and cannot be save when they turn their backs on him. I know that he wants to but I also know he will not be able to since the free will of man comes into play.  

I hope someone can help me understand how all can come to him and be saved yet some are blinded and hardened and will not. 

How do I respond to those who say the Lord wants to save everyone? 

How do I tell them the Lord has blinded and hardened their loved one?

Isaiah 6:9-12
And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.” Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered: “Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, The houses are without a man, The land is utterly desolate, The Lord has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.'
 

Edited July 23, 2022 by debrakay
clarity

[debrakay]

Matthew 10:16 (NKJV)
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." 

Matthew 7:6 (NKJV)
“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

 Matthew 10:14 (NKJV)
"And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet."

[Alive]

Matt. 19:24 (NAS20S) “And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them, Jesus said to them, “ With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

[Selah7]

19 hours ago, debrakay said:

This scripture in 2 Peter 3 tells us the Lord is not willing that any should perish.  He wants all to repent and come to him.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Then in John 12 we are told that he has blinded their eyes and harden hearts so that they cannot understand and turn to him for healing.

John 12:40 - He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.

Please help me resolve this dilemma when I hear others say that he wants to save every single person. All people.  The verse in John tells me that all will not and cannot be save when they turn their backs on him. I know that he wants to but I also know he will not be able to since the free will of man comes into play.  

I hope someone can help me understand how all can come to him and be saved yet some are blinded and hardened and will not. 

How do I respond to those who say the Lord wants to save everyone? 

How do I tell them the Lord has blinded and hardened their loved one?

Isaiah 6:9-12
And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.” Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered: “Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, The houses are without a man, The land is utterly desolate, The Lord has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.'
 

Good morning, debrakay…

It seems some people have little interest in reading God's Word and have no desire to know Him. They are not thirsty or hungry for His Word. The Word therefore continues to be a mystery to them. Isaiah offered to serve God after hearing His voice.  We can also see that Jesus’ disciples frequently sought Him in private to ask Him a question.  They yearned to learn and to be instructed by Him who possessed all knowledge. God deeply loves each and every one of His children and it is His desire that none perish but have everlasting life.    Selah …

And the disciples came, and said unto Him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

- Matthew 13:10-16 (KJV)

[Dan Knight]

19 hours ago, Alive said:

Matt. 19:24 (NAS20S) “And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them, Jesus said to them, “ With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Interestingly,  in those days the 'eye of the needle ' was the spot in the walls surrounding the cities, as at Jericho, where a comparatively small hole was, where sewage and waste were washed out from the inside. Came in handy when under seige and had to close off the city for days even months at a time. 

  Often the opening was gated to prevent anyone,  man or 🐫,  from sneaking in.

  I found this out some 12 years ago from a friend who was a history major, specializing in the military aspects of those times. I felt it added to my understanding of the 'camel passing through the eye of the needle'.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Dan Knight

[Dan Knight]

Your answer can be found in the word of God. Start with the story of Moses and the Exodus. (Keep in mind that this was not an opportunity type situation wher God observed an event and chose it to show the people, both good and bad what He could do. Not at all. It was a set up, by God and it had a purpose.  The purpose or reason was the goal. )You will read that on several occasions Pharaoh wanted to let the people go. BUT GOD HARDENED PHARAOHS HEART SO HE WOULD NOT LET THE PEOPLE GO. But He sent Moses to tell him one thing and when Pharaoh buckles under the pressure,  God says nope. Not a surprise if you go back to when God first prepared Moses to go to Egypt.  Exodus 3:19. God says I am sure that he will not let the people go,  no not by a mighty hand. So how were the people let go? When? And under what circumstances? By the blood of the lamb. That scene was staged by GOD to foretell of the coming of His Son, the Lamb of God, to set all humanity free from the penalty of sin. How? The Lamb had to be sacrificed. 

  The point of your question is how Pharaoh was used by God to make His point. Doesn't seem fair to Pharaoh cause he wanted to give in but God would not let him...repent. But even though we can see why still doesn't seem fair to Pharaoh,  or anyone else whom God has denied repentance, (hardened their hearts).

What would make all this understandable and acceptable? How about this present age is NOT the only time of salvation? 

In the bible it is refered to as the general resurrection of all who have ever lived. Takes place after the 1000 year period, millennium.

All who have not been given the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior will get the opportunity then. Pharaoh and his will be there, Nebuchadezar and his, ect.

For help in gaining understanding look at the word Ephphatha. Spoken by Jesus, a word of Chaldean orgin, used only once in the Nt. Why use that language where it would be simple enough to say be open in the native language? Was Jesus showing off His multilingual talents, or did He have a purpose?

[debrakay]

3 hours ago, Dan Knight said:

For help in gaining understanding look at the word Ephphatha. Spoken by Jesus, a word of Chaldean orgin, used only once in the Nt. Why use that language where it would be simple enough to say be open in the native language? Was Jesus showing off His multilingual talents, or did He have a purpose?

And they bring unto him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech; and they beseech him to put his hand upon him. And he took him aside from the multitude, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue; and looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened. And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain. And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it ; and were beyond measure astonished, saying, He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak.' ~ Mark 7:32-37

It's such a beautiful story about one of his wonderful miracles.  The Aramaic word ephphatha is the Hebrew word pethach. Hebrew pethach (Chaldee) is only used only twice in the OT and both times in Daniel.  In Daniel 6:10 regarding an "open" window and then in Daniel 7:10 regarding final judgement when the books are "opened".   

The open window was where Daniel prayed 3 times daily to God so I understand this to mean it was his "open" connection to God the Father.  Just as when Jesus looked up to God the Father when healing the deaf mute in Mark 7 and said "ephphatha" asking him to "open" the ears and tongue of the man. 

Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime. ~ Daniel 6:10

Daniel 7:10 is part of the prophesy of judgement day and Daniel tells us the books were "opened" (pethach).  Verse 9 tells us the Ancient of Days is the one opening the books of judgement in chapter 7.  God the Father. 

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. ~ Daniel 7:9-10

Jesus always points us to certain things to learn from him and the prophets.  I believe the Holy Spirit is revealing that God the Father is always able to open ears, eyes, mouths, hearts, minds, and spirits as he wills but my revelation and discernment would be that since he only used "ephphatha, pethach, opened" three times in the entirety of the Bible it is not something he does often to that which is closed.  Only in the miracle situation. The deaf mute and those who witnessed needed a miracle.  Daniel needed a miracle to understand and speak out prophesy and the day the books are opened will be a miracle. 

Thank you for sharing so that I could study this and allowing me to share back.  

We serve such a great and mighty God!

P.S. I found in Isaiah 35:5 the word opened is the Hebrew word paqach which means for the eyes to be opened so it would not be the right word in the above instances.  I also read that the definition of ephphatha, pethach, means "Be thou opened".  I love that!  Tonight I feel like he "opened" this for me. 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

On 7/23/2022 at 11:08 PM, debrakay said:

This scripture in 2 Peter 3 tells us the Lord is not willing that any should perish.  He wants all to repent and come to him.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Then in John 12 we are told that he has blinded their eyes and harden hearts so that they cannot understand and turn to him for healing.

John 12:40 - He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.

Please help me resolve this dilemma when I hear others say that he wants to save every single person. All people.  The verse in John tells me that all will not and cannot be save when they turn their backs on him. I know that he wants to but I also know he will not be able to since the free will of man comes into play.  

I hope someone can help me understand how all can come to him and be saved yet some are blinded and hardened and will not. 

How do I respond to those who say the Lord wants to save everyone? 

How do I tell them the Lord has blinded and hardened their loved one?

Isaiah 6:9-12
And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.” Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered: “Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, The houses are without a man, The land is utterly desolate, The Lord has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.'
 

Hi debrakay,

Interesting and good topic. 

I`ll mention Pharaoh as someone has already spoken of God hardening his heart. Now we tend to look from our understanding but we need to understand from God`s perspective. The more God did great miracles then the more Pharaoh got enraged and just didn`t want to let the children of Israel go from Egypt. They were his slaves and he was the Pharaoh, (thought of as a god). Thus the AFFECT of more miracles actually hardened Pharaoh`s heart. But the choice was Pharaoh`s.

The same in the context of John 12: 40. In v. 10 & 11 we see the chief priests took counsel together to get rid of Jesus (& Lazarus, the great proof of Jesus raising him from the dead.) Further (v. 43) we read how the Pharisees loved the praise of men rather than God. These priests had God`s word, they read it in the Temple, they taught the people God`s word, yet in their hearts they were proud and not humble to receive the truth that they were actually reading, (Old testament).  

Jesus departed and was hidden from them for He knew that although He had done many wonderful signs among them they did not believe. (v. 37) This fulfilled what Isaiah prophesied that the more Jesus did miracles (revealed His arm, v. 18) the more incensed these priests and Pharisees became, and THEY chose to harden their own hearts, and thus not repent.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Michael37]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:38 AM, debrakay said:

How do I respond to those who say the Lord wants to save everyone? 

I would say that although it is God's Will for everyone to be saved He doesn't force His Will on everyone.  

Mar 16:14-16  Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.  (15)  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.  (16)  He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
 

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/23/2022 at 6:38 AM, debrakay said:

This scripture in 2 Peter 3 tells us the Lord is not willing that any should perish.  He wants all to repent and come to him.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Then in John 12 we are told that he has blinded their eyes and harden hearts so that they cannot understand and turn to him for healing.

John 12:40 - He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.

Please help me resolve this dilemma when I hear others say that he wants to save every single person. All people.  The verse in John tells me that all will not and cannot be save when they turn their backs on him. I know that he wants to but I also know he will not be able to since the free will of man comes into play.  

I hope someone can help me understand how all can come to him and be saved yet some are blinded and hardened and will not. 

How do I respond to those who say the Lord wants to save everyone? 

How do I tell them the Lord has blinded and hardened their loved one?

Well to respond from the viewpoint of reformed Protestantism, God takes no pleasure in the loss of souls. He opens up salvation to all who will come, without distinction based on ethnicity etc. all kinds of people are invited to come, but because people are unwilling, they perish. He has chosen some for salvation out of the human race, without giving specifics as to why some, not others, not everyone. He points out that all have sinned, and all deserve death, so their negative eternity is on them.

As has been pointed out, it should not surprise us that God saves some, but that He saves anyone. All have sinned, not one seeks God, no one does good, that is our human nature. However, in His sovereignty He does extend grace to some, and opens there eyes so that they can see, unstops their ears so they can hear, gives them a heart of flesh, where there was a heart of stone, frees them from the bondage of sin, and gives them a new nature, that they will live. This is the mystery (revelation) of the new birth that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about. It is a work of God, which gives people a new nature that can and will respond to Him. That is His grace, resulting in faith and extending mercy to those who receive it.

So, the short answer to the question, How can God do it? Through the miracle of the new birth.

There is a lot of tension that a lot of people have over your very question. The nuts and bolts of how salvation works are debated, passionately by some, and those who engage in that debate often do that with confirmation bias, where the look through the scriptures to locate verses they can use to support the position they already have or hope is true. 

Rather that go into a lengthy exposition, I would tell you that you can get bogged down with everyone else, in our Theology/Soteriology section of the forums, but I will cut and paste from Got Questions in the post:

Question: What does it mean that God is not willing for any to perish, but that all should come to repentance?

Answer:

It is always important to study Bible verses in context, and it is especially true with 2 Peter 3:9, which reads, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (KJV). The second half of the verse, “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,” is frequently used to argue against the doctrine of election.

The context of 2 Peter 3:9 is a description of scoffers who doubt that Jesus is going to return to judge the world with fire (2 Peter 3:3–7). The scoffers mock, “Where is this coming?” (verse 4). In verses 5–6, Peter reminds his readers that God previously destroyed the world with the flood in Noah’s time. In verse 7, Peter informs his readers that the present heavens and earth will be destroyed with fire. Peter then responds to a question he knew was on his readers’ minds, namely, “what is taking God so long?” In verse 8, Peter tells his readers that God is above and beyond the concept of time. It may seem like we have been waiting a long time, but, to God, it has been a blink of an eye. Then, in verse 9, Peter explains why God has waited so long (in our view of time). It is God’s mercy that delays His judgment. God is waiting to give more people the opportunity to repent. Then, in the verses following verse 9, Peter encourages his readers to live holy lives in anticipation of the fact that Jesus will one day return.

In context, 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is delaying His coming in judgment in order to give people further opportunities to repent. Some of the confusion regarding the meaning of 2 Peter 3:9 is the wording of the KJV translation: “not willing that any should perish.” Not willing makes it sound as if God does not allow any to perish. However, in 17th-century English, willing carried more of an idea of desire than of volition. The modern English translations of 2 Peter 3:9 render the same phrase “not wanting” (NIV and CSB), “not wishing” (ESV and NASB), and “does not want” (NLT).

In no sense does 2 Peter 3:9 contradict the idea that God elects certain people to salvation. First, in context, election is not at all what the verse is talking about. Second, to interpret “not willing that any should perish” as “does not allow any to perish” results in the false doctrine of universalism. But God can “not desire” anyone to perish and still only elect some to salvation. There is nothing incongruous about that. God did not desire for sin to enter the world through the fall of Adam and Eve, yet He allowed it. In fact, it was part of His sovereign plan. God did not desire His only begotten Son to be betrayed, brutally tortured, and murdered, yet He allowed it. This, too, was part of God’s sovereign plan.

In the same way, God does not desire anyone to perish. He desires all to come to repentance. At the same time, God recognizes that not everyone will come to repentance. It is undeniable that many will perish (Matthew 7:13–14). Rather than being a contradiction to 2 Peter 3:9, God’s electing and drawing of some to salvation is evidence that He truly does not desire people to perish. Were it not for election and the effectual calling of God, everyone would perish (John 6:44; Romans 8:29–30).