The mustard bush of Matthew 13 - an aberration

[AdHoc]

27 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

…why went to sea to teach these parables…

To interject another thought. The sea is sometimes a metaphor for chaos, the Gentile nations at a distance, or the evil realm's abode.

Mark 4:1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.

Two physical aspects might be so (i)Jesus was not thronged, and (ii) The acoustics are much better and amplified from sea to shore like an amphitheater.

Almost all scripture has layers of revelation. Our Lord Jesus was laid in a manger after birth. He was certainly laid in a manger because there was no bed or cradle in a farmyard stall. But does it not also show that the Person is food - for both clean and unclean animal? So also my appreciation for why Jesus taught from a boat and in the sea. That the stage and acoustics were better is almost certain. That would be practical. But a boat with Jesus in boat with His disciples supported by the sea adds to the overall picture of the parables. It predicts the gospel going out from the nations, but by the Church after Israel go into dispersion. In the same way we can add to the last three parables by finding out  which "house" the Lord entered to tell the remaining three parables.

And I bet you that the Lord is smiling right now and saying; "How come you missed this and how come you missed that"?

[Dennis1209]

37 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Almost all scripture has layers of revelation. Our Lord Jesus was laid in a manger after birth. He was certainly laid in a manger because there was no bed or cradle in a farmyard stall. But does it not also show that the Person is food - for both clean and unclean animal? So also my appreciation for why Jesus taught from a boat and in the sea. That the stage and acoustics were better is almost certain. That would be practical. But a boat with Jesus in boat with His disciples supported by the sea adds to the overall picture of the parables. It predicts the gospel going out from the nations, but by the Church after Israel go into dispersion. In the same way we can add to the last three parables by finding out  which "house" the Lord entered to tell the remaining three parables.

And I bet you that the Lord is smiling right now and saying; "How come you missed this and how come you missed that"?

I agree with you on many of these points, I added my additional observations and thoughts.

Oh yes! God's word is multilayered, how deep it goes only the Lord Himself knows? I suspect we will constantly be learning God's word throughout all of eternity and what is there. 

New insights still emerge and are discovered from time to time by godly men. One recent discovery credited to the late Dr. Charles Missler, the first ten generations from Adam to Noah, is no coincidence. The proper Hebrew name meanings from Adam to Noah are strung together into a coherent English sentence. That discovery knocked my socks off.

We all have different levels of biblical knowledge and understanding. Like myself as a Bible student on milk, to great scholarly minds and expositors. 

Not that I agree with anyone's hermeneutics completely, but your scriptural knowledge, insight, and interpretations are head & shoulders above mine. Thus far, you have mentioned several things in retrospect that should have been obvious, that never crossed my mind.

My main purpose as a member of the forum is foremost to talk and share Jesus and scripture with my brothers & sisters in Christ. I have a deep interest in biblical prophecy and the unfolding of it as I type. Sharing what little insight I have of scripture, and especially paying attention to those that are more knowledgeable than me and learning. 

I do my best not to imply my personal views are the correct ones when in doubt, with the exception of my core beliefs of Salvation and the God Head (Trinity).

I am no exception; I sometimes get perturbed and spicey with my rhetoric in a few conversations with sensitive people. I'm working on that.

[AdHoc]

4 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I agree with you on many of these points, I added my additional observations and thoughts.

Oh yes! God's word is multilayered, how deep it goes only the Lord Himself knows? I suspect we will constantly be learning God's word throughout all of eternity and what is there. 

New insights still emerge and are discovered from time to time by godly men. One recent discovery credited to the late Dr. Charles Missler, the first ten generations from Adam to Noah, is no coincidence. The proper Hebrew name meanings from Adam to Noah are strung together into a coherent English sentence. That discovery knocked my socks off.

We all have different levels of biblical knowledge and understanding. Like myself as a Bible student on milk, to great scholarly minds and expositors. 

Not that I agree with anyone's hermeneutics completely, but your scriptural knowledge, insight, and interpretations are head & shoulders above mine. Thus far, you have mentioned several things in retrospect that should have been obvious, that never crossed my mind.

My main purpose as a member of the forum is foremost to talk and share Jesus and scripture with my brothers & sisters in Christ. I have a deep interest in biblical prophecy and the unfolding of it as I type. Sharing what little insight I have of scripture, and especially paying attention to those that are more knowledgeable than me and learning. 

I do my best not to imply my personal views are the correct ones when in doubt, with the exception of my core beliefs of Salvation and the God Head (Trinity).

I am no exception; I sometimes get perturbed and spicey with my rhetoric in a few conversations with sensitive people. I'm working on that.

I have yet to meet two scholars who agree on every thing. And I believe that the Lord, in His wisdom, made it impossible. Consider this;
The original Old Testament has two versions (i) Masoretic and (ii) Septuagint. Normally we would choose the Masoretic because it was the Jews who were "given the oracles of God". And their methods and discipline of copying scrolls was so accurate. But then they killed a Nazerine and this Nazerine had just fulfilled over 330 prophecies in their scrolls. Something needed to be done. By 700 AD the Masoretic text was unrecognizable. Then God allowed the Dead sea scrolls to be discovered and ... well, some careers were destroyed.

Then we have two sets of scrolls, one found among the Churches and written in Koin Greek, and the other in classic Greek in the world's then biggest library at Alexandria. The so-called "Received Text" was on much newer scrolls because they were used so much and had to be copied a lot. Scholars preferred the ancient scrolls of Alexandria.

Then translators had to decide. Do we translate the original languages literally and accurately and end up with a cumbersome translation. Or do we make a dynamic translation with smooth and elegant reading and sacrifice accuracy.

SIX variations! Or even a combination of them faces the student of scripture. What was our God thinking. I can't tell, because His thoughts are not mine, but I know one thing. It forces the student of scripture to study ... and study .... and study. If you're interested in the truth, you are faced with a long uphill. And then you have to factor in whether God's Spirit has favored yo and will give you light. And then you might have tremendous insight from the Holy Spirit but  are not gifted in languages - so no one takes you seriously.

The human being must almost reach an age of understanding before the bible is approached. That means that our human life and knowledge are far ahead of or spirits by the age of 20. So our intellect holds things that the spirit has not yet fathomed. And this goes on our whole life. Our brain's MUST hold something. But it could be fully incorrect. And so a battle starts when the truth we newly discover overturns what we have held for decades. Our Psyche loathes to release something that has given it comfort. Changing one's beliefs is BRUTAL Many are too molded to change. And so what do we have?

WE HAVE LITERALLY DOZENS OF STUDENTS OF THE BIBLE WHO ARE GENUINE CHRISTIANS BUT WHO HOLD VASTLY DIFFERING VIEWS. One can only be honest. Read God's Word literally and accurately. If it produces an absurdity, revert to pictorial understanding by explaining the Bible with the Bible and in all this keep a healthy attitude that you are  most probably missing a few crucial points. If you do this with lots of prayer, and a deep understanding that revelation comes from God and that you need Him and the Church for understanding, you have a chance to get something right.

And then ... don't hold your breath and hope that another student sees it your way ... . You can only do your best and trust God. I love the rough and tumble of this Forum. There is always something to be learned.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

What does, you have “spiritualised “ scripture mean?..thanks....

Hi Rosie,

Thanks for asking. To `spiritualise` scripture means that the person is not taking scripture as God has written, but is making it something else. God always has His interpretation in His word, but `spiritualising` doesn`t look for God`s meaning but imposes their own thoughts which may sound `spiritual,` but in reality it is just their own opinion. Christians especially can fall for this because the person`s opinion relates to them as a believer. 

The main error is taking what the Lord has said to Israel and making it for the Body of Christ. Yes we can learn lessons from all of scripture however not all of scripture is about US. God`s word is all about the Lord, His character and His purposes.

regards, Marilyn.  

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I set forth a commentary of a parable. I gave arguments for arriving at my conclusions. You have three choices:

1. Ignore me
2. Accuse me but bring no proof
3. Rebut me with sustained logical arguments

You have chosen number 2. This is your right, but a Christian who claims to have knowledge of the truth and withholds it is like the watchman for a city. He saw the enemy but did not sound the alarm. The Lord said such a man has the blood of the city on his hands (Ezek.33:6).

I showed you the scripture that Jesus was quoting in regards to Israel being the tree that all the birds, (nations) would gather under.  (Ez. 17: 22 - 24)

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I have yet to meet two scholars who agree on every thing. And I believe that the Lord, in His wisdom, made it impossible. Consider this;
The original Old Testament has two versions (i) Masoretic and (ii) Septuagint. Normally we would choose the Masoretic because it was the Jews who were "given the oracles of God". And their methods and discipline of copying scrolls was so accurate. But then they killed a Nazerine and this Nazerine had just fulfilled over 330 prophecies in their scrolls. Something needed to be done. By 700 AD the Masoretic text was unrecognizable. Then God allowed the Dead sea scrolls to be discovered and ... well, some careers were destroyed.

Then we have two sets of scrolls, one found among the Churches and written in Koin Greek, and the other in classic Greek in the world's then biggest library at Alexandria. The so-called "Received Text" was on much newer scrolls because they were used so much and had to be copied a lot. Scholars preferred the ancient scrolls of Alexandria.

Then translators had to decide. Do we translate the original languages literally and accurately and end up with a cumbersome translation. Or do we make a dynamic translation with smooth and elegant reading and sacrifice accuracy.

SIX variations! Or even a combination of them faces the student of scripture. What was our God thinking. I can't tell, because His thoughts are not mine, but I know one thing. It forces the student of scripture to study ... and study .... and study. If you're interested in the truth, you are faced with a long uphill. And then you have to factor in whether God's Spirit has favored yo and will give you light. And then you might have tremendous insight from the Holy Spirit but  are not gifted in languages - so no one takes you seriously.

The human being must almost reach an age of understanding before the bible is approached. That means that our human life and knowledge are far ahead of or spirits by the age of 20. So our intellect holds things that the spirit has not yet fathomed. And this goes on our whole life. Our brain's MUST hold something. But it could be fully incorrect. And so a battle starts when the truth we newly discover overturns what we have held for decades. Our Psyche loathes to release something that has given it comfort. Changing one's beliefs is BRUTAL Many are too molded to change. And so what do we have?

WE HAVE LITERALLY DOZENS OF STUDENTS OF THE BIBLE WHO ARE GENUINE CHRISTIANS BUT WHO HOLD VASTLY DIFFERING VIEWS. One can only be honest. Read God's Word literally and accurately. If it produces an absurdity, revert to pictorial understanding by explaining the Bible with the Bible and in all this keep a healthy attitude that you are  most probably missing a few crucial points. If you do this with lots of prayer, and a deep understanding that revelation comes from God and that you need Him and the Church for understanding, you have a chance to get something right.

And then ... don't hold your breath and hope that another student sees it your way ... . You can only do your best and trust God. I love the rough and tumble of this Forum. There is always something to be learned.

You are on the mark again. I'm familiar with how we arrived with the Bibles we have today.

One thing that stands out in my mind of several is the explosion of translations and versions of the Bible in the 19^th century. It is as if the best-selling book of all time was turned into a cash cow. Or, people were too illiterate to understand the handful of translations they had. I recall at this point; there are 200+ translations around today? All but a handful enjoy copyright protection and everything that entails (restricting and owning God's word from public use and for profit).

I wrote a book and learned the process of legally quoting scripture from the ESV version when I found it appropriate instead of the KJV. Above limited free word usage, there is a fee attached to anything over the free word usage. Use information must be disclosed.

In the "dark ages," it was punishable to own and read a personal copy of the Bible (the Light). Few understood hearing it in Mass what a priest was reading in Latin, and they wanted people to believe what was interpreted by the church.

I reference other translations when studying, as some words and expressed ideas are translated better than the KJV. I believe the KLV is the best translation overall, and I enjoy the poetic Old English.

Singing off the same sheet of music: Just last night at our annual three-night revival (each of us and all our churches need revival IMO), we had another wonderful and exciting guest pastor-preacher.

The congregation followed along in scripture as he was reading, but the eyes, ears, and brain got confused following a nondisclosed translation. Our church members predominately use the KJV, and my brain babbled, trying to listen and read simultaneously in another translation.

Mind you, I'm not complaining, but if it were put to lyrics and music, how would it sound and come across?

Question: What are your thoughts on this subject? During church service, Sunday School, and Wednesday night Bible study. Should the congregation attendees use the exact translation as the pastor-presenter or stick with the translation they are more comfortable with? What about when the preacher or teacher flips around using multiple translations?

Regarding translation and revisionist Bibles: Jesus was born a Jew, inspired scripture was given to the Jews to pen, and Jews were responsible for preserving scripture. Do we consider these things in selecting a translation?

The Dead Sea Scrolls is a fascinating topic of discussion. It verifies our Bible's accuracy, removes many italics, and clarifies many things. The timing of their discovery and everything occurring in Israel was no coincidence.

Matthew 11:5 (KJV) The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

I'll close with the above verse. The above verse, "the dead are raised up" is much too long to detail now. In short, this is a personal confirmation to John, something only John and the Essenes would have known at the time. A fascinating study.

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Question: What are your thoughts on this subject? During church service, Sunday School, and Wednesday night Bible study. Should the congregation attendees use the exact translation as the pastor-presenter or stick with the translation they are more comfortable with? What about when the preacher or teacher flips around using multiple translations?

Regarding translation and revisionist Bibles: Jesus was born a Jew, inspired scripture was given to the Jews to pen, and Jews were responsible for preserving scripture. Do we consider these things in selecting a translation?

Because I want to know  exactly what God said, I choose and recommend a literal translation. Because the Church is the ground and pillar of the truth I choose the Received Text above the Alexandrian (an institute). Because 1611 English is difficult I choose the next closest thing for everyday use - the New King James. That is, because of the wealth of reference works, I use the King James to study and the New King James if I'm going to teach. Ideally the whole Assembly would settle on a version but I am loath to dictate to people. If the teacher knows a translation is difficult in other versions which his audience use, he must go the extra mile to study the other versions. The final authority however is the Hebrew or the Greek text. But my experience is that the KJV translators did a fantastic job. Over 40 of the best scholars in bonny England is not only a wealth of knowledge, but a huge peer pressure. Careers and reputations were on the line in 1611 and nobody was going to make any wild translation.

The other plus for the 1611 is that the king (James) had an agenda, but it was not to pervert scripture. It was to give the common man the Bible so that he could see that the Pope was a fraud. This is not so after this. The money provided by wealthy men, the worldliness of foundations and lack of peer policing of new versions has opened the door for inaccuracy to downright perversion.

As to the question of the Jews, the problem is a two-pronged fork. Up until Christ's trial and death I believe the Jews took the "Oracles of God" very seriously and copying of worn out manuscripts was very disciplined. But the Jews know deep down that something very bad happened on that fateful Passover day. Even a cursory study of Jesus, His life and His death will show that the Jews broke dozens of Laws and the whole trial and death was a farce and illegal. Secondly, I am well aware of the status of the Jew before God. I have a deep respect for them, and like Paul, a deep sympathy for them. I am very careful when dealing with a Jew to make sure my actions do not disadvantage him in any way. But we have before us a nation who is owned by scripture itself to be stiff-necked, blind, deaf and dishonest law-breakers who have been chastised to the uttermost for their disposition. Am I to trust such men?

The answer is a very practical "no". I do not trust the present Masoretic text, and the Dead Sea scrolls confirm that. I personally think that God, foreseeing the outcome of things, caused the Septuagint to be written before the pressure to change things was on. Finally, is it not a matter of faith? WE have a God Who makes claims. One of them in Daniel is that He does among angels and men what He like and "no one can stay His hand". If God is faith (and He is) one of the texts and a certain translation is the one God wants us to have. He would not leave His people without His Word. After due detective work, I have settled on the Received Text and the King James. It was the Bible of the Reformation and still stands as a measuring stick today. But in the 1800 when the Brethren recovered the grand truths of the Second Coming, the Rapture and the Millennium, they used predominantly the Alexandrian texts. So if is pleases Jehovah to use the Alexandrian for such profound things, I must study them too.

But in the end, Christianity has bigger problems than a text or translation. Their problem is that they start with a preconceived idea and then read into scripture what they want. Even the best student cannot hope to get to the bottom of a matter like this. And what is so disastrous is that they would never do this to men's writings. Just installing an APP would not be successful if you did what you thought instead of what the designer of the APP wanted. But on this very Forum we see, at an almost hourly tact, somebody saying that a certain scripture says this and that when it is clear, even to a high-school student, that the verse(s) does not remotely say this.

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

As to the question of the Jews, the problem is a two-pronged fork. Up until Christ's trial and death I believe the Jews took the "Oracles of God" very seriously and copying of worn out manuscripts was very disciplined. But the Jews know deep down that something very bad happened on that fateful Passover day.

I assumed you knew I was inferring the Old Testament, not the Good News. Upon copying, editing and peer review, if even one jot or tittle was in error, the entire manuscript was destroyed and redone until exact. The same goes with "copies" of the Masoretic text, not modern human revisionist translations for profit.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The answer is a very practical "no". I do not trust the present Masoretic text, and the Dead Sea scrolls confirm that.

Yep, cash cow copyright syndrome and demonic perversion. It is all well explained in a tiny little free booklet BIBLE VERSIONS ... Introduction (stewartonbibleschool.org)