Isa 53'and Jewish Rabbis

[Wayne222]

     I know and believe Isa 53 is speaking of Jesus Christ. I been debating some Orthodox Jewish Rabbis and lay people. One is Rabbi Singer. He is a very good speaker and debater. You can look him up on YouTube. Anyway he and others say Isa 53:is talking about The nation of Isarel. It's saying according to the Rabbi that Isarel is the suffering servant. I for one want to reach the Jewish people with gospel of Christ. But rabbi Singer is very hard to debate. He knows the Hebrew very well. Anyone have good sound theology of Isa 53 ?

[Charlie744]

34 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

     I know and believe Isa 53 is speaking of Jesus Christ. I been debating some Orthodox Jewish Rabbis and lay people. One is Rabbi Singer. He is a very good speaker and debater. You can look him up on YouTube. Anyway he and others say Isa 53:is talking about The nation of Isarel. It's saying according to the Rabbi that Isarel is the suffering servant. I for one want to reach the Jewish people with gospel of Christ. But rabbi Singer is very hard to debate. He knows the Hebrew very well. Anyone have good sound theology of Isa 53 ?

Great topic and this has indeed been debated.. I would highly recommend you to the site for Dr. Michael L. Brown and he as written a terrific book on this subject - He has debated Singer and refuses to do so every again... it has been some years since their debate ...

Brown goes into detail and is a clear as the sky when he speaks on this... You will enjoy him... Singer - not so much.

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Great topic and this has indeed been debated.. I would highly recommend you to the site for Dr. Michael L. Brown and he as written a terrific book on this subject - He has debated Singer and refuses to do so every again... it has been some years since their debate ...

Brown goes into detail and is a clear as the sky when he speaks on this... You will enjoy him... Singer - not so much.

Forgot… great YouTube videos! 

[Wayne222]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Great topic and this has indeed been debated.. I would highly recommend you to the site for Dr. Michael L. Brown and he as written a terrific book on this subject - He has debated Singer and refuses to do so every again... it has been some years since their debate ...

Brown goes into detail and is a clear as the sky when he speaks on this... You will enjoy him... Singer - not so much.

Hi I did see that debate on YouTube. Actually Rabbi Singer got the better. Yet of course he is wrong. The Orthodox Jews are very good in there augments. But just reading the gospel of John shows Jesus is Messiah. 

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

You can believe it, that doesn't make it so. Rabbi's spend many years studying Hebrew, the Tanakh and Talmud. You'd better have a better argument then "I believe" if you plan to debate centuries of settled theology. We go by what is written.

The Christian bible affirms Christian beliefs? Colour me shocked!

But why doesn't your comments / response apply exactly the same to you?  . If one attends a Catholic school - all grades, lives in a Catholic household, community, etc., I can assure you they will know only what they have been taught by the Church... does that make them right? Are their interpretations of the scriptures (over some 1500 years) right? Can they make the scriptures speak what they want them to say? 

The Christian bible does not affirm the Christian beliefs (and I assume you mean the NT when you say the Christian bible). But the Tanakh is the Christian bible - absolutely NO different that what the Jews read. The NT books do not add to or take away from the Tanakh.. they speak to the prophecies found  in the Tanakh. 

So, perhaps you might want to put aside the NT for this discussion and just use the Tanakh to discuss what 53 means. Now, there is a level playing field. 

Is 53 messianic or not? If everyone agrees it is, then the ONLY question is was Jesus the Messiah? If there is no agreement it is messianic then that discussion should take place before one identifies who Jesus is?

Take one verse at a time and have everyone who is interested comment on .. 

Or, if  you have a better idea on how to discuss 53...

Just a thought, Charlie

 

[JohnD]

Yeshayahu - Isaiah - Chapter 52 (Chabad.org)

Edited August 13, 2022 by JohnD

[JohnD]

Same passage in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 from same Tanakh from Chabad.org

(I had to use images to copy the Hebrew in the previous posting). 

This one is text interactive:

13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

14 As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

1 Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?  

2 And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?      

3 Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.

8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

11 From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

12 Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

Edited August 13, 2022 by JohnD

[JohnD]

13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

14 As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

1 Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?  

2 And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?      

3 Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.

8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

11 From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

12 Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

• This is obviously referring to an individual. Many rabbis declare this servant to be Israel (Isaiah 41:8 / Isaiah 44:21) but the language refers to an individual
• If this refers poetically to the people of Israel, then this must mean the Jews suffer for the benefit of Gentiles (who are called God's people in verse 53:8 above)
• If in fact it does refer to Israel, it can only mean an individual by that name (and Jacob was long dead before Isaiah penned this text)
• The name Israel means he is prince of God. The ultimate prince of God is none other than Moshiakh Nagiyd (Daniel 9:26)

DANIEL 9:

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 explains why the "anointed king" will be cut off.

This is the Jewish Bible. You can line up rabbis and scholars from now til Yeshua returns to declare the text doesn't say  what it says... but that does not change the fact that it says the Messiah (anointed one / anointed king) will pay the price for our sins. If Yeshua HaNotzri be not that anointed king, then produce the one who was. And according to Daniel, the prophetic window for that sacrifice was before the destruction of the second temple. Name the alternative.

Edited August 13, 2022 by JohnD

[JohnD]

5 hours ago, Slibhin said:

You are incorrect, the Tanakh and the Old Testament are not the same. The books are laid out differently and translations can be very different. Regardless the section you are talking about is discussing how Israel is treated by gentile nations.

I realize your comment was not addressed to me. However, I believe there is a stake for everyone in the subject matter. While I am not going to defend the indefensible actions and dogma of errant factions of Christianity (like Roman Catholicism), statements like the above about the Tanakh / Old Testament cannot go without a defense / comment. 

The expression "two Jews: three opinions" make it perfectly clear that the interpretation of the Tanakh can in fact differ within Judaism and Jewish circles. You and like minded Jews choose to believe and agree upon the interpretation that the Tanakh does not prove that Yeshua HaNotzri is the Promised Messiah (or exactly what that Anointed King actually is and does).

Even in the 1st Century CE there were at least 3 major factions in Judaism:

• Pharisee
• Sadducee
• Essene

So, at best, you can only claim to believe the interpretation that appears to disprove or not apply to Yeshua the BRANCH. But! You will have to take the burying your head in the sand approach to the many scripture passages in your own Tanakh that predictively prophesy Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah Prince who pays the sin debt for the human race. 

And therefore all you can do is repeat your head in the sand stance over and over.

With respect and the love of Yeshua, if you are willing to truly consider the evidence in Tanakh that points to Him, the private message arrangement we had (with supervision by Ayin Jade or anyone you choose) is continued and open to you.

[JohnD]

23 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

You're never ever going to convince us that G-d has altered or changed his covenant with the Jewish people by a single letter.

 

HaShem did precisely that:
Yirmiyahu 31: (Chabad Tanakh)
30 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.   להִנֵּ֛ה יָמִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה וְכָֽרַתִּ֗י אֶת־בֵּ֧ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְאֶת־בֵּ֥ית יְהוּדָ֖ה בְּרִ֥ית חֲדָשָֽׁה: 31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.   לאלֹ֣א כַבְּרִ֗ית אֲשֶׁ֚ר כָּרַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־אֲבוֹתָ֔ם בְּיוֹם֙ הֶֽחֱזִיקִ֣י בְיָדָ֔ם לְהֽוֹצִיאָ֖ם מֵאֶ֖רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲשֶׁר־הֵ֜מָּה הֵפֵ֣רוּ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֗י וְאָֽנֹכִ֛י בָּעַ֥לְתִּי בָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה: 32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.   לבכִּ֣י זֹ֣את הַבְּרִ֡ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶכְרֹת֩ אֶת־בֵּ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אַֽחֲרֵ֨י הַיָּמִ֚ים הָהֵם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה נָתַ֚תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם אֶכְתֳּבֶ֑נָּה וְהָיִ֚יתִי לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְהֵ֖מָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִ֥י לְעָֽם: 33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.   לגוְלֹ֧א יְלַמְּד֣וּ ע֗וֹד אִ֣ישׁ אֶת־רֵעֵ֜הוּ וְאִ֚ישׁ אֶת־אָחִיו֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר דְּע֖וּ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֑ה כִּֽי־כוּלָּם֩ יֵֽדְע֨וּ אוֹתִ֜י לְמִקְּטַנָּ֚ם וְעַד־גְּדוֹלָם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּ֚י אֶסְלַח֙ לַֽעֲו‍ֹנָ֔ם וּלְחַטָּאתָ֖ם לֹ֥א אֶזְכָּר־עֽוֹד: 34 So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name.   לדכֹּ֣ה | אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֗ה נֹתֵ֥ן שֶׁ֙מֶשׁ֙ לְא֣וֹר יוֹמָ֔ם חֻקֹּ֛ת יָרֵ֥חַ וְכֽוֹכָבִ֖ים לְא֣וֹר לָ֑יְלָה רֹגַ֚ע הַיָּם֙ וַיֶּֽהֱמ֣וּ גַלָּ֔יו יְהֹוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת שְׁמֽוֹ: 35 If these laws depart from before Me, says the Lord, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time.   להאִם־יָמֻ֜שׁוּ הַֽחֻקִּ֥ים הָאֵ֛לֶּה מִלְּפָנַ֖י נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה גַּם֩ זֶ֨רַע יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל יִשְׁבְּת֗וּ מִֽהְי֥וֹת גּ֛וֹי לְפָנַ֖י כָּל־הַיָּמִֽים: New Covenant unlike the Old Covenant (verses 30-31) The distinction between Law of Moses and "My Law" (as denoted in the reference in verse 35 to the Law(S) ← plural Written on the hearts of those in the New Covenant (verse 32) The eternal forgiveness of sin (verse 33) No code of conduct. No order of prayer. No devotion to texts. And certainly no sacrifices whatsoever. ← all of which the Law of Moses was about In your own Tanakh.