WHERE does the SPIRITUAL BODY go when the flesh dies? UP or down

[DeighAnn]

7 minutes ago, NCAP said:

I'm not sure what was paid or who was paid. But obviously, for him to raise anyone on the last day he must 1) be present and 2) be alive. (John 6:40)

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


The problem is WHO are the dead?

I have no idea when or how but somehow the TRUTH got changed from those who received the gift of salvation and never die to those who receive the gift of salvation are no different than the dead who don't.  They both resurrect from the dead and the dead can still be found in the book of life just like the 'supposedly  living' are. BUT don't quote me, I am  stuck guessing because they don't know or won't tell.  


As for the 'last day' that was something from the Old Testament.  They waited for a 'last day' because they died in sin.  We are not to put new wine into old skins or it makes them break.  We are under a New Covenant and you won't find a LAST DAY for a rising of the all the living souls all at once in their old dead bodies anywhere 

We don't die in sin we die under the blood of the Lamb slain, under grace under His imputed righteousness.  We have been MADE ALIVE.  And if we follow His commandments and if we love Him and if we are not deceived,  we never lose that life.  (and all the OSAS came a running and a screaming 'you can't work to keep your salvation)

But the truth is we,  having received the gift of salvation, having been made a new creature, having died and been raised up with Him ALREADY are basically just changing one body for another and following Him. As we bore the image of the earthly we bear the image of the heavenly.   He went to the Father to prepare a place for us to go to and that we do until we return with Him to set up His earthly kingdom for the Lords Day.  


Not one word about souls hooking up with rising flesh.  NO WHERE is that written anywhere.  The closest thing truly is THE DEAD are going to rise,  but that doesn't have anything to do with the living.   

 

[Starise]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


What is the Mystery?   Not all are going to sleep.  

Why would THAT be a mystery to anyone?  Because 

It's a mystery because we don't entirely understand how it all works and that's why we are discussing it now.

The mystery is that we will be changed " in the twinkling of an eye"

The dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE.

This is talking about the dead in Christ. Not the unsaved dead "WE". Us, you and me and everyone else who might have died by that time who is a believer.

This move from corruptible to incorruptible will also include those of us who are alive and remain.

............we shall be

............we will be

This is FUTURE. The last trump has not happened yet, therefore we can't claim it has or happens immediately at death. This is the text for my beliefs. So far you haven't shown me a text that supports the idea we have bodies ( at least in the way we see a physical body) until we ARE RESURRECTED which is future.

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The SAVED NEVER DIE so how can you call them SAVED DEAD?  THERE are no saved dead because only the dead die.

No saved dead? There are millions of them.

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I am just trying to find SOME SORT OF COMMON GROUND in which there is SOME TRUTH to be found in everyones belief.   

The 7th day adventists believe in something called soul sleep. While I find it very compelling, I can't really claim this as my personal view due to the discrepancies that would seem or appear to show instances of lucid persons after death.

When I read your posts it throws me off in several directions. When I give examples from the bible for my beliefs, you disagree but offer no definitive examples from the bible that would support two bodies. This is because the bible doesn't say there are two bodies. Period.

The bible ONLY says absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Being present with the Lord could mean several things. Taken literally it means what it says, that we are where the Lord is in person or where He is and we are the same as we are now only without bodies. We haven't been 'changed' yet with new bodies because that doesn't happen until the resurrection. Keep in mind our sinful nature might still be intact. This is why I am almost persuaded to adopt the idea that being with the Lord after death and before the resurrection is indeed some sort of limbo or sleep. If true, it isn't the worst thing in the world. We are STILL with the Lord in this way until He comes.

It's probably not good that the idea of being in limbo with the Lord is attached to a cultish and theologically messed up belief system otherwise. Would sleeping in Jesus be such a bad thing if true?

Other problems are created when we try to make two bodies and the bible doesn't say there are two bodies or explain why it makes any sense at all that we are resurrected to the Lord in heaven immediately at death in a soul form but then we somehow make a trip back to get those bodies at the resurrection, essentially being resurrected twice. Once without a body and once with a body.

[DeighAnn]

10 minutes ago, Starise said:

The mystery is that we will be changed " in the twinkling of an eye"

I will wait until you give me the Scriptures before proceeding because if you can't produce them then all of this has no point.  GIVE ME THE FOUNDATION FOR YOUR BELIEF.  

[DeighAnn]

12 minutes ago, Starise said:

No saved dead? There are millions of them.

Is that statement CALLING JESUS A LIAR?   BECAUSE either He is lying or that statement is because BOTH CAN'T BE TRUTH

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in M e, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever LIVETH AND BELIEVETH in Me shall never die.

Believest thou this?   YES OR NO


WE KNOW THOSE WHO WERE DEAD HAD THEIR GRAVES OPENED SO ALL THOSE DEAD WERE SAVED AND RESURRECTED LEAVING ONLY THE UNSAVED DEAD IN THE GRAVES.  


EVER SINCE THAT DAY ALL THOSE WHO HAVE COME TO FAITH AND HAVE BEEN SAVED WHILE THEY LIVED HAVE NEVER DIED.


SO WHO ARE THE SAVED DEAD YOU ARE SPEAKING OF????????????

[NCAP]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  EVER SINCE THAT DAY ALL THOSE WHO HAVE COME TO FAITH AND HAVE BEEN SAVED WHILE THEY LIVED HAVE NEVER DIED.

What is SAVED WHILE THEY LIVED HAVE NEVER DIED supposed to mean?

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, NCAP said:

What is SAVED WHILE THEY LIVED HAVE NEVER DIED supposed to mean?

It means that Jesus made it possible for us to never be in bondage to death.  That we never go to hell because of a sin.  

It is the New Covenant. 
 

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.

Believest thou this?

Because IF you believe that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures And that he was buried, and that He rose again the third day Then you must know that if the dead rise not, then Christ has not been raised but Christ is risen from the dead and in Christ shall all be made alive.

So how are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

We sowest not that body that shall be but this body when sown at death produced but a bare grain,  and God giveth that a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.  

This natural body is sown in corruption our spiritual body is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour but we are raised in glory it is sown in weakness but we are raised in power:

It is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

  

[Starise]

On 9/26/2022 at 8:06 AM, DeighAnn said:

I will wait until you give me the Scriptures before proceeding because if you can't produce them then all of this has no point.  GIVE ME THE FOUNDATION FOR YOUR BELIEF.  

We have already covered enough scripture here to satisfy a discussion on this subject. And in other threads we have been over and over this again and again. And no matter what I say or give you it isn't enough to satisfy, yet you continue to demand something I can't even put a finger on. You make this far more confusing than it needs to be.

You can use caps and colors all day long. It doesn't in any way serve to make your point if you don't have concrete answers for your position. I have asked you for answers for your position and you try and throw the onus back on me.

Let's return to this yet again to be clear on it-

You believe we are with the lord in new bodies immediately after we die. To get around the resurrection of the saved dead which comes in the future you claim there must be two bodies. Yet the bible never says there are two bodies. The bible only speaks of a resurrection of the saved dead and then those who are alive and remain are also taken up at the end, at the last trump. 

You don't see how the spirit of a person could exist apart from a body, yet our spirit was made before God put it in our bodies. It existed before the body. Why couldn't it exist in some form after the body? 

I have made my views clear and I have been clear about what I wasn't sure on. I only go by what the bible says. ...and what specifically does the bible say?

The bible says there will be a future resurrection of the saved dead who will be somehow miraculously reconstituted into beings with heavenly bodies that will still be 'us' only with a revised body. My points all stand on this fact of scripture.

You have many hurdles to clear in order to make the beliefs you seem to have work.

-two resurrections at different times

-two bodies

The bible does not support either so far as I can see. Nothing you have shown makes a case for these opinions. 

In my opinion the resurrection and 'soul keeping' are two different things unless you can show me otherwise in a clear can't be denied sort of way.

 

[Cntrysner]

On 9/25/2022 at 3:04 PM, Starise said:

I .cf that quote from this text-

1 Corinthians 15:23-24

 

King James Version

 

 

²³ But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

²⁴ Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Prior text in chapter 15 has Paul addressing the Corinthians as to the validity and proofs of Christ's having risen again. Verse 23 is an emphasis on what will follow and the order in which this will occur.

The order is Christ first, the dead in Christ second. Next those who are alive and remain. Lastly at the end all who rejected Christ will be raised to be judged. 

John 5:28-30

28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. 30I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.…

Christ has long since risen. At His resurrection many who were in the graves were raised again as further proof of what was to happen later.(Mt 27:52-53)

The differentiation between groups are those saved who had died, those living and those condemned to judgement.

 

 

Jas 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 

Members of the body of Christ are among the first fruits to God. This offering of firstfruits, those that died in Christ are an offering by Christ by the Spirit that continues until the final harvest.

The ascension is proof that we in Christ have a way to the Father to be where He is, Christ is the way, the truth, and the light.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
 

[Starise]

2 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

Jas 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 

Members of the body of Christ are among the first fruits to God. This offering of firstfruits, those that died in Christ are an offering by Christ by the Spirit that continues until the final harvest.

The ascension is proof that we in Christ have a way to the Father to be where He is, Christ is the way, the truth, and the light.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
 

Thanks for sharing this.

I have no doubt we are raised to a quickened mortal body as I have highlighted in your comments.

As to verse 11 in Room chapter 8.- 

What I learn by this verse-

- Our MORTAL bodies are quickened

- We will be raised in the same way Jesus was raised.

-This happens sometime in the future

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

We have already covered enough scripture here to satisfy a discussion on this subject. And in other threads we have been over and over this again and again. And no matter what I say or give you it isn't enough to satisfy, yet you continue to demand something I can't even put a finger on. You make this far more confusing than it needs to be.

You can use caps and colors all day long. It doesn't in any way serve to make your point if you don't have concrete answers for your position. I have asked you for answers for your position and you try and throw the onus back on me.

Let's return to this yet again to be clear on it-

You believe we are with the lord in new bodies immediately after we die. To get around the resurrection of the saved dead which comes in the future you claim there must be two bodies. Yet the bible never says there are two bodies. The bible only speaks of a resurrection of the saved dead and then those who are alive and remain are also taken up at the end, at the last trump. 

You don't see how the spirit of a person could exist apart from a body, yet our spirit was made before God put it in our bodies. It existed before the body. Why couldn't it exist in some form after the body? 

I have made my views clear and I have been clear about what I wasn't sure on. I only go by what the bible says. ...and what specifically does the bible say?

The bible says there will be a future resurrection of the saved dead who will be somehow miraculously reconstituted into beings with heavenly bodies that will still be 'us' only with a revised body. My points all stand on this fact of scripture.

You have many hurdles to clear in order to make the beliefs you seem to have work.

-two resurrections at different times

-two bodies

The bible does not support either so far as I can see. Nothing you have shown makes a case for these opinions. 

In my opinion the resurrection and 'soul keeping' are two different things unless you can show me otherwise in a clear can't be denied sort of way.

 

First thank you for allowing me to use all the colors and CAPITOLS I WANT, MUCH APPRECIATED as I haven't ever been given that before!!!

I will use this for all the statements of yours that I use
You believe we are with the lord in new bodies immediately after we die.

I will use this for my answers
1.  
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

2.
1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

3.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

4.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

5.
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.



To get around the resurrection of the saved dead which comes in the future
I am not trying  'to get around it'  as I DON'T BELIEVE it is written anywhere. 

1.  I have never seen ANY 'SAVED DEAD' written OF in the words of God.  at least not since Christ Himself was risen. 
2.  I believe The future resurrection is of the UNSAVED DEAD because only those who have NOT BEEN SAVED can be DEAD  



 you claim there must be two bodies. 
1.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
2.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.



The bible only speaks of a resurrection of the saved dead 

The bible NEVER speaks of a 'saved dead'.    A soul has EITHER been
1.  made alive and NEVER DIES, 
2. remains DEAD and then DIES.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.


those who are alive and remain are also taken up at the end, at the last trump.

Agreed


You don't see how the spirit of a person could exist apart from a body, yet our spirit was made before God put it in our bodies. It existed before the body. Why couldn't it exist in some form after the body? 

1.  
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image,

2.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

3.
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


The bible says there will be a future resurrection of the saved dead

I can find no answer you have given on 
1.   A 'SAVED DEAD'
2.  a future resurrection of a SAVED DEAD.


who will be somehow miraculously reconstituted into beings

I can find NO ANSWER GIVEN on
1.  a 'miraculously reconstituted'


with heavenly bodies

I can find NO ANSWER GIVEN on either
1. 'heavenly bodies' being reconstituted but NOT EVEN
2. 'spirits without bodies' being reconstituted.  


that will still be 'us' only with a revised body.


My points all stand on this fact of scripture.

THEN LETS END THIS AND JUST GIVE THE SCRIPTURES FOR 

Please just copy and paste the list below and fill in the numbers below SO I DON'T MISS YOU ANSWERS.  

I have shown my answers a clearly as this so there is NO DOUBT AS TO WHERE I GET MY ANSWERS. 

PLEASE AFFORD ME THE SAME CURTESY SO IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE I AM BEING OBTUSE. 

1.  A 'SAVED DEAD'
2.  a future resurrection of a SAVED DEAD.
3.  a 'miraculously reconstituted' EVENT taking place
4.  heavenly 'bodies' being reconstituted
OR 
4a. 'spirits' without bodies being reconstituted.  


Your answers for the above

1.  
2.
3
4