WHERE does the SPIRITUAL BODY go when the flesh dies? UP or down

[Starise]

Under creation there is a time for everything. A time to die and a time for the righteous in Christ to rise. 

We seem to have a textual contradiction if we say we are raised at death since the bible doesn't really say this.

Both the dead in Christ and those who remain will be raised right before the 7th trumpet. It's all there in black and white.

Now we could get into semantics over what state we are in while we wait for this resurrection. The bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

If we take that statement at face value with no other accompanying scriptures we could say it literally means we are with God at death OR we could say we are in God's care until we are resurrected. Two very different things. To be 'with' God is to be in His care. 

As someone else has already mentioned here, position or location looks much different in the other realm from everything I gather. So 'where' are we then at death? We know we are in God's care if we are believers. The bible doesn't say absent from the body and present with the Lord in heaven.

No it doesn't say that. 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Good morning friend,  I have a couple of questions and a couple 'just making sure' I understand on your comments

"We have established that before Jesus Christ who was the one appointed to Judge the living and the dead...that no one was Judged before his Judgment at the time of their death about their destination after their death....and before the Judgment of jesus Christ began the people were taken by Death and Hades without a Judgment, they were taken by DEFAULT...when death comes to them HADES is right there following him and takes the people who just died...no one else is their to contest him...that was the DEFAULT Inheritance of mankind at the time of their death..."


Do you agree that those who came to faith while they lived like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and those who were perfect under the law, and those who were translated went to heaven and not Hades,  being those who GOD raised up?  And when the OLD COVENANT was put away and the New One brought in,  that there is a 'judgment' of heaven or hell, life or death, ascend or descend that now takes place when ones 1st body dies, one way for the saved and the other for the unsaved?




You said,

"We read that Death and Hades they lost that authority or that they were stripped from that right to take the people at death by DEFAULT...

We see them Judged in the Lake of fire together with those whose names are not written in the book of Life...

Regarding when this happened, it happened at the time when Jesus Christ died on the Cross..."



Are you saying that the DEFAULT was changed at the time of Jesus Christ resurrection, ALONG with the time the lake of fire was 'opened'? Or that the lake of fire is future?

Do you believe there is ANY PART those who NEVER DIE
that will be 'resurrected' out from the DEAD or the decay or hades or hell that will be 'glorified'?


 

Hi D, and good day to you too, I value your questions because they are questions of substance, I appreciate the fact that you have given a lot of thought before you ask any questions, and that is remarkable...and has an effect on me, to consider carefully what I post ...

And I had somehow considered one of your questions and this is part of what I had posted earlier

"(About Abraham and his chosen children it was diferent) till Jesus Christ...and not after his resurrection...)

I have considered that Abraham and his chosen children from Issac to Jacob-Israel and all the household of Jacob in the Covenant of Circumcision and later in the Covenant of Sinai were the children of God set apart from the rest of the world...

And to make it transparent not they were not included in the DEFAULT Inheritance for mankind which was that at the time of their death Hades was there to take them by DEFAULT, and no one else was there to contest him...

I said that "no one was their to contest him because this was just after their death and not before that...because it was determined before the foundation of the world that God could only interfere with that process on an individual basis before anyone dies and not after his death...

In that statement I bring to our attention that God did that with Enoch (before the flood), and Abraham and he did that very interesting with Elijah, and interesting enough and this is to blow your mind, he had done it earlier with Moses...both of them he took them to himself before they died, because he had given them life while they still lived. 

God had given them Life so they can stand in his presence and lived and he also had given them a  righteousness that was above the law or outside the Law by a degree...this is obvious with Elijah because he was not able to attend the celebrations in the Temple and the day of the Atonement because the Lord made it so, when Elijah was obedient to him to criticize and Judge the leaders of the Nation and the High Priest and the King which the seek to kill him...This is easier to perceived if you see that Elijah was in the same situation Jesus was or what happened to Elijah it was a shadow of similar things that will happen to Jesus...in his dealings with the authorities..

Let's go back to the issue were discussing before...

But first let's take a look at Abraham because God did not take Abraham to himself before he dies in the way he took Elijah and Moses before they both died...

About Moses we know that Jesus Christ was the first one begotten from the dead...And keeping that in mind we can come to the understanding that God also took Moses before he died...if not then Moses would be the first one begotten from the dead...

And the scripture should have never said about Jesus who died long time after Moses that Jesus Christ is the first one begotten from the dead...

This makes it clear who is the first begotten from the dead which is Jesus Christ..

And this also Justifies the statement that at the time of their death before the Cross that Hades followed Death and took the people by DEFAULT with the exceptions at hand and the exeptions of Abraham and his chosen seed after him, from him to Issac to Jacob-Israel.  

Who they were alive to God when they loved and continue to be Alive to God after they died...

This I am award that you are familiar with knowing about what God had said to Moses at the burning Bush...and the comments Jesus made about that...saying that they were alive to him all the time in life and in death...that they were his people and that he was their God and Jesus said with a very strong emphasis when amongst other things he said that the God of Abraham is not the God of the dead...because the Lord God Almighty was still their God after their death...

You are also in knowledge that Abraham and his chosen children they were not ascending to Heaven but they were also descending at the appointed place God had set  for them and which was apart and separated from the dead of the rest of the world..

Which was called the Bossom of Abraham this where Abraham welcome his children after their death and that was in the earth separated from Hades and the people who were with him.

In other words Hades was off limits to where Abraham was...a Holy place even though some place in the earth where Jesus could not go unless he died first...as not one has ever descend to the heart of the earth while still in his body...this is why Hades had to wait for anyone to died before he takes them to the place of the dead, obviously he cannot take them alive while still in the body...this everyone can understand it on his own...just have to think about that...not even with an oxygen supply...man alive cannot go through and move around within the ground. 

Regarding Abraham and his chosen children who were God's people and they were Judged while they lived at first they were judged according to the Covenant of Circumcision...as to whether they were the people of the Lord from the chosen seed of Abraham...that's all they had at that time...to be the heirs of Promises of God to Abraham and the God of the chosen Circumcised seed...( without wondering too much, look at the children of Jacob what they did...even some of them kill people and that was not in war...but they still were the children of the Lord God Almighty because of the Circumcision...this is why the Jews insisted that they need the Circumcision, and Paul was telling them you have the blood of Jesus, the Lamb of God, something a lot better, something huge, as who also have with Jesus Christ a Heavenly Inheritance, and the Heavenly Father AMEN, and the Holy Spirit....that why we are never separated from God....

Let me go ahead of perhaps one of your possible questions or perhaps the questions of someone else...

We have established that the Lord God Almighty judged his people according to the Law not only when they leave but also at their death to whether they will be gathered to Abraham to be together with his people who had died before them...For them it was over, the Judgment was over, they only people who were judged by God the Almighty their Father, whom they call their Father and who he called them his children..

The have gone through the Judgment and it has been determined that they are the people of God, their Father...

This is why after the Cross of Jesus all the people the Father had who were gathered in the Bosom of Abraham who were the children of God before the Cross....the Father gave them to Jesus Christ, so the scripture was fullness that all the Father had he gave them to Jesus Christ...those children did not have to be subjected to the judgment of jesus Christ just like the rest of the world because they were the children of God already they had been already Judged by the Lord God Almighty.  The Father gave them to Jesus Christ so all the children of God now or since that time are in Jesus Christ...

Thank you, the other question please later on...

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Both the dead in Christ and those who remain will be raised right before the 7th trumpet. It's all there in black and white.

Could you please SHOW me which verses will SHOW ME that and show where the 'souls' going to heaven are going without bodies

And the BLACK AND WHITE of where 'the souls' returning are being reunited with 'risen flesh'.  



DOES this say that being raised up is with a body or not?  

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Does this say what is 'made alive' takes place at the DEATH of the flesh body?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die

Does this say the DEAD flesh will or never will be raised up?  Does this say that the dead flesh gives but a 'grain' of some sort?

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain

Does this say that every GRAIN gets a body?

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


Does this say we die in a corruptible body but are raised up in an imperishable body?   Is there some 'time period' I am not seeing here that you are seeing?  

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption

Is God raising 'a seed' in glory or a body?  

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in
weakness; it is raised in power:

DOESN'T this say in the most direct way possible that the flesh body goes while the SPIRITUAL BODY IS RAISED?   

Why WOULD we sow a natural body yet NOT be raised up a spiritual body?

1  Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

DO YOU SEE MY PROBLEM?  THIS IS WHAT I READ IN BLACK AND WHITE.  I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU CAN READ IT DIFFERENTLY.  


If you are going to tell me that because there are those who will be ALIVE when Christ returns at the 2nd Advent

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

and they are all going to be CHANGED   and the DEAD will be RAISED

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

MEANS we don't go to heaven in a body,

I would like to know. 

but the real question I am hoping ANYONE EVER can answer is

HOW does someone who NEVER DIEs

GET TO BE AMONGST THE DEAD WHO ARE BEING RAISED UP? 

 You would be the first one to answer this question, if you could.  

When the flesh dies we are raised up in our spiritual bodies in glory, immortal, imperishable, and in power having LABORED and now going to REST having received the gift of Salvation.  We will have followed Him to the place He went to prepare for us and will be returning when He does. 
 

so how do we get from that to being RAISED UP
back down to 
hell or hades or the grave or death
to be raised up again ALONG WITH the just and the  unjust dead?

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

 

[BeyondET]

Interesting the body doesn't die right away at death.

The immune system fights death for awhile, stem cells will release enzymes and molecules to try and repair organs. Skin and bone cells stay live without decaying the longest up to several days. Brain cells start to die with minutes after death, heart cells stay alive for about a hour, liver cells a bit longer, other organs follow suit.

Edited September 24, 2022 by BeyondET

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Interesting the body doesn't die right away at death.

The immune system fights death for awhile, stem cells will release enzymes and molecules to try and repair organs. Skin and bone cells stay live without decaying the longest up to several days. Brain cells start to die with minutes after death, heart cells stay alive for about a hour, liver cells a bit longer, other organs follow suit.

Shows what a great job God did in creating this body.  And this, the 'corruptible' one.  Just the same, not going to have any problem leaving it behind and raising up in the incorruptible one.  

[BeyondET]

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Shows what a great job God did in creating this body.  And this, the 'corruptible' one.  Just the same, not going to have any problem leaving it behind and raising up in the incorruptible one.  

The body is amazing, organs stay alive for awhile to be able for transplants to save a life as well

[Dirt Eaters]

On 8/15/2022 at 1:39 PM, DeighAnn said:

 I haven't run across this anywhere so any opinions thoughts or insights to Scriptures that might help set it straight will be much appreciated 

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. 

Does it say anywhere that this only applies to the natural body?  

Given we are told we will never die, have been made new, been reborn,  is it possible for any part of THOSE HAVING BEEN SAVED to descend other than the natural flesh body become nothing more than a carcass going back to the dust of the earth? 

Could our spiritual body descend and still 'remain alive' without a spirit/soul? 

If our spirit ascends and our spiritual body descends and remains in the grave as the natural body decays to await the return of Christ to be raised up,  wouldn't it become corrupted? 

If corruption can not inherit incorruption 15:50, and the spiritual body has been corrupted, then how does it inherit incorruption when it is raised when Christ returns?

Those who have been 'saved' have ALREADY died (descended sown seed of spiritual body) and RISEN with Christ (ascended) and been made NEW creatures.  Aren't we made 'new' by being BORN OF THE SPIRIT and wouldn't our SPIRITUAL BODY be born and bee needed for the Holy Spirit to dwell within us?  Is it possible for the Holy Spirit to dwell in a sinful natural body?  Wouldn't be being born of the spirit be the BIRTH of the NEVER DIE parts of ourselves that ASCENDs to go be where He is so we can receive the things done in this body at the death of the flesh ?  


In CONTRAST

Those who have not become new creatures, have not been saved and are dead spiritually  DESCEND at death
ALL of them descends, their spirits go to hades their bodies in the grave.  Their spiritual seed body sown in corruption and that is why they are raised imperishable but not immortal,  as they have to wait for the GWTJ (remain spiritually dead another 1000 years) for their names to be written into the book or be cast into the lake of fire.  


 

ark 2:18 And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

Mark 2:19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

Mark 2:20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Mark 2:21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.

Mark 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

 

Does it matter? If you died in China, you would be the opposite anyways. 

Maybe being thankful for being in heaven should be more important.

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, Dirt Eaters said:

Does it matter? If you died in China, you would be the opposite anyways. 

Maybe being thankful for being in heaven should be more important.

Yes, it does.  Gods Truth matters.  The wisdom and knowledge of God matter.  The details matter.  And they matter because it is our ARMOR to withstand the fiery darts of Satan.  Do you want a hole in your armor?  

Being in heaven is important but is being in heaven more important than the words of God?  I am not sure how to 'compare' the two to make one more important as they are co dependent aren't the?  

So many people today think we can skip the details like they don't matter, 
 but no matter what we do, if it is something we love and want to do right, and to be sure that we BUILD upon the foundation in a way that wont be BURNT up or blown away, they do, don't you agree?  

I believe because I learned the words of God as directed that God formed the way I think when it comes to His words and I want to make sure I am not trying to have God follow MY RELIGION but I instead FOLLOW HIM and His ways.  

I hope this answers your question and helps in some way.  

[DeighAnn]

13 minutes ago, Dirt Eaters said:

Does it matter? If you died in China, you would be the opposite anyways. 

Maybe being thankful for being in heaven should be more important.

And I WELCOME you to the forums.  I pray you are enriched by them.  I myself have learned a lot here.  I continue to grow all the time.  I hope it will be that way for you alsso.  

[Your closest friendnt]

2 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, it does.  Gods Truth matters.  The wisdom and knowledge of God matter.  The details matter.  And they matter because it is our ARMOR to withstand the fiery darts of Satan.  Do you want a hole in your armor?  

Being in heaven is important but is being in heaven more important than the words of God?  I am not sure how to 'compare' the two to make one more important as they are co dependent aren't the?  

So many people today think we can skip the details like they don't matter, 
 but no matter what we do, if it is something we love and want to do right, and to be sure that we BUILD upon the foundation in a way that wont be BURNT up or blown away, they do, don't you agree?  

I believe because I learned the words of God as directed that God formed the way I think when it comes to His words and I want to make sure I am not trying to have God follow MY RELIGION but I instead FOLLOW HIM and His ways.  

I hope this answers your question and helps in some way.  

The details are important because we understand what Jesus has accomplished that it could not be accomplished by any other way...

Only Jesus could changed our derection at the time of death, instead of descending to ascending to where he is together with the Heavenly Father...