WHERE does the SPIRITUAL BODY go when the flesh dies? UP or down

[DeighAnn]

2 minutes ago, Starise said:

THE DEAD, those dead in Christ already have a priest.

Unless now you are changing this to the dead without Christ.

GOD IS THE God of the living

but Jesus is Lord of both the dead and the living. 

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Maybe it's the dead BY Christ, like how with His Brightness Satan is destroyed.

But if the word 'in' is the 'word' that changes EVERYTHING then what can I say.  

7 minutes ago, Starise said:

Can you show where this happens simultaneously? I don't believe the dead unsaved are resurrected at the same time. The only reason the unsaved are resurrected will be for them to be judged.

Two judgements two groups of people, two different times. One group raised to eternal life and the other group to damnation.

  So you don't think BOTH in that sentence has anything to do with timing?  Why not?  

But ok.  

 

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 


Christ and the armies have returned and the Kingdom on earth is being set up and Satan is being bound.  


AND WE KNOW THE DEAD HAVE BEEN RESURRECTED.  We know the dead have come from corruption.  We know that those who come from corruption do not inherit immortality but THEY HAVE BEEN RAISED UP.  BOTH those just and unjust DEAD


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 

Again, all those who were alive and remaining were changed, and gathered to those who returned and received their immortality, they are all of the first resurrection.  BUT THE DEAD are not of the first resurrection because the ONES WHO WERE RAISED UP STILL TO TO BE JUDGED, to see if their names will be found in the book of life or if they will face the 2nd death

 

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 




NOW, I have shown you WHEN THESE DEAD were resurrected.  If you believe they were resurrected at a different time then PLEASE SHOW ME so I can understand and re adjust my thinking.  BUT continuing on with what I believe it is 1000 years later and those dead, both the just and unjust are going to stand in judgment

 

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 



NOW here come ANOTHER RESURRECTION/RISING UP from the dead

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 

 

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Please help me out here if you see something I have not seen.  MY GOAL is to work out all false doctrines I may have BEFORE I STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.  I AM more than willing to look stupid and ignorant and all the other bad things that will make me embarrassed as can be NOW so that I won't have to feel that way later.  

22 minutes ago, Starise said:

One can hold this view without saying it all must happen immediately after death.

WHAT IS sown is not raised but what is sown produces a seed and to EVERY SEED GOD GIVES A BODY

Is that support?

It doesn't say we are sown an natural body we are raised a SPIRIT

it says we are sown a natural body we are raised a spiritual body

Is that support?

It says we will follow Him, not our spirit.


What is a man but body and soul/spirit.  So how can we be any sort of being if without a body?  


EvERY indication is we are in bodies.  THERE ARE FEET, and robes, and talking and crying and all the other things necessary for a body AN NOTHING indicating we are without bodies.  

Not only that but there is NOTHING that says and FLESH rises up when CHRIST RETURNS.  all it says is THE DEAD will be raised.  

WE are told this flesh goes back to dust.  


EVERYTHING WRITTEN SCREAMS BODY everything man believes says spirit without body.  WHY IS THAT?  WHO DOES that benefit?  

If we NEVER DIE then why come back to get WHAT DID DIE when we have a body in heaven?


The list goes on and on.  Please make up a list for me with all the Scriptures that support 
1 going to heaven without a body
2 returning for a body
3 bodies of flesh rising up
4 body and souls reuniting.  

I'll stop there and see how far we get.  


 

[NCAP]

In the Apostle's creed, "I believe in ... the resurrection of the body..."

Because the body without the spirit is dead, it must be that the spirit returns to the same body, not a different body.

[Starise]

34 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

GOD IS THE God of the living

but Jesus is Lord of both the dead and the living. 

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Maybe it's the dead BY Christ, like how with His Brightness Satan is destroyed.

But if the word 'in' is the 'word' that changes EVERYTHING then what can I say.  

I'm trying to get at the center of the oreo and you might be in another cookie jar. No offense intended. 

Yes 1 Corinthians 15:52 is making the point that in the FUTURE the dead in Christ will be raised.

So what is our disagreement here if any? All the dead will be raised. The saved dead will be raised first to go to be with the Lord.

If you are personally still working through some of this I totally understand. I am still working through some stuff on other things too, so I get it.

I know you not too long ago lost a loved one? Unless I'm mistaken. It is during these times we try to make sense of things. We can't bear to think of our loved ones laying in the ground. "They" are NOT laying in the ground so far as their soul is concerned. That part is safely with God. In what interim state it's in I can't be sure. I do know that where ever it is, they are NOT in a hole in the ground. If your loved one was not a believer, then of course things could be different. I can't bear to think of where my grandfather on my dad's side is right now. It would give me nightmares.

Please clarify the last two sentences if you can. Sorry I'm just not getting what you were trying to say.

34 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

WHAT IS sown is not raised but what is sown produces a seed and to EVERY SEED GOD GIVES A BODY

Is that support?

It doesn't say we are sown an natural body we are raised a SPIRIT

it says we are sown a natural body we are raised a spiritual body

Is that support?

It says we will follow Him, not our spirit.


What is a man but body and soul/spirit.  So how can we be any sort of being if without a body?  

This is where I think we can get into trouble sometimes in thinking something MUST BE or HAS TO BE a certain way.

Here is the conundrum as I see it- We really don't understand how the part of a person that goes beyond the grave exists. WE can't assume it doesn't work without a body because we don't know. God breathed a LIVING SOUL into Adam. Those souls all return to Him if they are believers. What state they are in I can't say, but they are SAFE with Him until the resurrection.

"IF" we had stories in the bible of people doing things in heaven as the dead who are presently in heaven , this would eliminate 99% of the questions, but we don't have those stories. So until we are resurrected one word applies FAITH. For me it's my faith. Sure we have illustrations of happenings in heaven either past, as in the angelic war or future, as in those who were beheaded for Christ around the throne of God.

Jesus told the thief, this day you will be with me in paradise. Yet that thief's body lays in a grave somewhere That's about our most convincing evidence for lucidity before we are resurrected in out new bodies. UNLESS, and there is always an UNLESS it seems....UNLESS the thief was one exception and not a rule since there is nothing saying his situation would be ours.

There is also the often repeated Lazarus story. I call it mostly an accurate parable and although unique among parables, it sure seems to be one to me for a number of practical reasons.

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Maybe it would help if you realized Jesus PAID the price already, He is not going back to do it again.  

Also if you read it in terms of ...waiting eagerly for OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, the deliverance of our body

AKA OUR SPIRITUAL BODY that we receive when this NATURAL BODY is sown.  


I was wondering if you would be addressing the questions I asked.  Or should I take this to be you answer even if it doesn't answer them?  

The answer that our current body will be redeemed / delivered is evidence enough. But I'll patronize you, despite your attitude.

John 2:19–21 (NASB95)
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Furthermore...

Luke 24:36–40 (NASB95)
36 While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.”
37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit.
38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

Same body he died in he is resurrected in.

1 John 3:2 (NASB95)
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

The resurrection of Jesus took place 3 days after his death on the cross. This is the first resurrection (Revelation 20). The general resurrection of the dead  has not taken place yet. Until then (Revelation 20) we are absent from the body in death which for believers in Christ is to be present with the LORD (2 Corinthians 5:8) in disembodied spirits. 

So therefore your comment about Jesus paying the price again is mute and has nothing to do with anything I posted.

Jesus Christ paid the sin debt once for all  (Hebrews 9:12 / Hebrews 10:10).

Now, if I were as discourteous to you as you were to me, I'd make some snotty comment about you not knowing scriptures and how you really ought to learn more about them.

I do not recall ever bumping into here, but you ceratainly made a lousy first impression on me.

[DeighAnn]

16 minutes ago, Starise said:

Yes 1 Corinthians 15:52 is making the point that in the FUTURE the dead in Christ will be raised.

WHAT exactly is 15:52 TELLING US?

 

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


What is the Mystery?   Not all are going to sleep.  

Why would THAT be a mystery to anyone?  Because 

 

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 

Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 

So, IT WOULD BE A MYSTERY,  that not everyone was going to die.  

How that has ANYTHING to a future resurrection 'of the NEVER DIED being raised out from the dead', I have no idea.  

And for ALL those who AREN'T GOING TO DIE, we learn they will ALL STILL BE CHANGED. 


WHEN is this going to take place, this mystery of the ALIVE AND REMAINING being changed?   at the 7th trump.  WHAT this has to do with the NEVER DIE BEING raised out from the dead I will never know.  


ALSO at the 7th trump the DEAD are going to be raised 'incorruptible' but IT DOESN'T SAY THEY ARE GOING TO BE RAISED IMMORTAL.  So these DEAD that are being raised up are going to remain SPIRITUALLY DEAD and STILL mortal, so facing the 2nd death and not until THE DEAD will stand in judgment will we know if they will RECEIVE LIFE/immortality or if they will receive the 2nd death in the lake of fire.  THE RESURRECTION OF BOTH THE JUST AND THE UNJUST will face THE GWTJ at the end of the Lords Day.  WHAT THAT has to do with the NEVER DIE BEING RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DEAD I will never know.  


 

40 minutes ago, Starise said:

So what is our disagreement here if any? All the dead will be raised. The saved dead will be raised first to go to be with the Lord.

The SAVED NEVER DIE so how can you call them SAVED DEAD?  THERE are no saved dead because only the dead die.


It is the most simple thing in the world.  Why what is so simple made so complicated?  

And what are YOU FIGHTING TO KEEP?  DEAD, DECOMPOSING AND  CORRUPTED SINFUL CARCASSES as your eternal spiritual body.  HOW GLORIOUS!!!  


THE DEAD DIE, the LIVING LIVE.  

BUT you are saying The DEAD go to the place of the dead AS WELL AS the living go to the place of the dead?  THAT is the ONLY WAY to be resurrected out from the dead. There is NO OTHER WAY.  

The dead to to the place of the dead and the DEAD rise up from the dead.

THE LIVING go to the place of the living and return with Christ STILL LIVING.  
Why?  because they received the gift of Salvation.  They believed while they yet lived and so never died.  They had died and were raised with Christ before their natural body ever died.  They FOLLOWED Him to be where He was.  


WHY would GOD have the LIVING AND NEVER DIE put with THE DEAD to be raised up?    

HE WOULDN'T.  Because that isn't right.  That is wrong on EVERY LEVEL,  there is not a single level in which that would ever be right.  Go for it.  Keep RACKING your brains out to try and get it to work,  but it NEVER WILL.  

 

1 hour ago, Starise said:

That part is safely with God.

GIVE ME SCRIPTURE.  GOD gave us TWO BODIES but instead of using them you DIVIDE what God has made and called a living soul.  BODY and BREATH.  

IT MAKES NO SENSE.  


I am willing to be that just like you WONT GIVE ME THE SCRIPTURES I ASKED FOR BEFORE YOU WON'T GIVE ME ANY FOR THIS EITHER.  And we both know why.  THERE ISN'T ANY.  It is a 'doctrine of man'.  I am sure it is taught in the 'schools' because everyone seems to have had the same indoctrination WITH NO ONE ASKING ANY QUESTIONS AS TO ITS TRUTH.


Until now. How is it I AM WRONG when I produce Scripture after Scripture and you produce none.  AM I THE COOKIE JAR??


 

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Please clarify the last two sentences if you can. Sorry I'm just not getting what you were trying to say.

Everyone keeps telling me it is because of the 'in' word that they believe the NEVER DIE having received eternal life are raised out from the dead. So I went and 'checked out' that word IN, from the 'DEAD IN CHRIST' TO see what it's story was  

1722. en ►

Strong's Concordance

en: in, on, at, by, with

Original Word: ἐν
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: en
Phonetic Spelling: (en)
Definition: in, on, at, by, with
Usage: in, on, among.

HELPS Word-studies

1722 en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).

And since we all know that NO ONE who takes the mark of the beast will live through His return 

And we know the whole world will be deceived, and we know there is the apostasy that happens when Satan comes, 

and there is a resurrection of the just and the unjust,

I figure the DEAD if they WERE in Christ but were deceived would 'rise up with the unjust dead' since all the priests will be needing someone to teach for 1000 years.  

ADD that to ALL WILL BE CHANGED....

I am just trying to find SOME SORT OF COMMON GROUND in which there is SOME TRUTH to be found in everyones belief.   































 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

We really don't understand how the part of a person that goes beyond the grave exists

We do know what is written so we do know what goes on PAST the grave.  GOD TELLS us in the most simple terms.  I have shared them to you.  You want to stick with what I can only assume to be a doctrine instead.  I have planted the seed, I have given it water.  The rest is up to God.  He knows EVERY THOUGHT we have and He knows what we are doing with them.  My conscious is clear.  


Sure would be nice for you to give all this Scripture you are using for the parting out of the body, the immortality being given to corruption, and all the rest because what has been put forth so far by no means supports any of that.  

 

1 hour ago, Starise said:

God breathed a LIVING SOUL into Adam

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God formed a body and breathed the breath of life and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL

BIG BIG DIFFERENCE


 

 

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Those souls all return to Him if they are believers.

And there you have it.  

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

The resurrection of Jesus took place 3 days after his death on the cross. This is the first resurrection (Revelation 20). The general resurrection of the dead  has not taken place yet. Until then (Revelation 20) we are absent from the body in death which for believers in Christ is to be present with the LORD (2 Corinthians 5:8) in disembodied spirits.

 

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[NCAP]

 

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

Sleep that is absent does not exist.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

The answer that our current body will be redeemed / delivered is evidence enough. But I'll patronize you, despite your attitude.

Are we redeemed because of His return or because of His sacrifice?  Was the price paid at His death or is the price paid at His return?  

 

 

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

Did Christ say today this is fulfilled or it will be on the day of vengeance?


And please show where DEAD FLESH is resurrected because I will show you where dead flesh goes back to the dust

 

[NCAP]

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Are we redeemed because of His return or because of His sacrifice?  Was the price paid at His death or is the price paid at His return?  

I'm not sure what was paid or who was paid. But obviously, for him to raise anyone on the last day he must 1) be present and 2) be alive. (John 6:40)