Genesis 2:11 The Garden of Eden's Location

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Genesis 10 talks about the spread of the people forming nations of their own after the Flood

People need food. The plants and animals that Noah preserved on the ARK became the foundation of our modern world today. Civilization rapidly spread from the Middle East to Europe, where people could multiply because there was food to feed them. Science has put a lot of research into the study of how civilization began. Of course, weapons are important, but you still need tools and food to feed an army. 

This was actually the bronze age, before the Iron age. Tools and weapons were made out of bronze at the time. 

 

[Who me]

On 10/27/2022 at 6:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

To say "No man made object would survive a global flood" is an ASSUMPTION! NOBODY knew whether the Great Pyramid did or did not survive the Flood, because NOBODY reported the matter

They are built of sedimentary rock, built out of metamorphic rock, both the product of the global flood.

 

To put this in a modern context it is like saying my uncle worked in the two towers, both he and his office survived the impact.

 

Two ridiculous statements.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Who me said:

They are built of sedimentary rock, built out of metamorphic rock, both the product of the global flood.

Shalom, Who me.

I looked it up, and yes, you're right; there ARE fossils in the rocks from which these pyramids were built, demanding they followed the Flood. However, the PLANS for the Great Pyramid could have come with the family of Noach THROUGH the Flood. So, I agree with you. I retract my statement, 

"To say 'No man made object would survive a global flood' is an ASSUMPTION! NOBODY knew whether the Great Pyramid did or did not survive the Flood, because NOBODY reported the matter."

GOD HIMSELF, in providing the fossils in the rocks, reported the matter.

3 hours ago, Who me said:

To put this in a modern context it is like saying my uncle worked in the two towers, both he and his office survived the impact.

Two ridiculous statements.

Okay, but as we all know, there WERE survivors from the two towers incident! And, any project on which those survivors were working survived, in part, with them!

Thank you for the correction. You've helped to solidify my position on the Great Pyramid. It was built AFTER the Flood.

[Retrobyter]

On 10/27/2022 at 4:22 AM, JohnR7 said:

With the drought in Iraq the Euphrates river is starting to dry up and ancient archeology sites are starting to emerge. Now we can see where the people lived that we read about in the Bible. Up until now it was assumed that everything was destoyed in the flood. 

 

Shalom, JohnR7.

I don't make that assumption. While there was certainly major upheavals in the earth's make-up, the Scriptures only say that "the fountains of the deep were broken up." We DO also have the Scriptures, ...

Psalm 104:1-11 (KJV)

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At thy rebuke they (the waters) fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they (the waters) may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
10 He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills.
11 They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.

Most take these verses to be speaking of the Creation, but there are certain clues within the text that do NOT match the clues we find in Genesis 1 and 2. Instead, I believe these verses are talking about the REFORMING of the earth after the Flood.

Verse 8 is telling in the Hebrew:

יַעֲל֣וּ הָ֭רִים יֵרְד֣וּ בְקָעֹ֑ות אֶל־מְ֝קֹ֗ום זֶ֤ה ׀ יָסַ֬דְתָּ לָהֶֽם׃

Transliterated into English lettering, we get:

Ya`aluw haariym yeerduw bqaa`owt 'el-mqowm zeh | yaacadtaa laahem:

And, translated word-for-word, we get:

Went-up mountains went-down in-valleys to - standing-places which | You-founded for-them:

Literally, this means:

[The] moutains went up; in valleys [that] went down into standing places which You founded for them (the waters).

This verse is talking about MOUNTAIN-BUILDING and the associated deepening of valleys nearby in which the waters would stand! I believe this not only applies to lakes and streams and rivers in the valleys between mountains, but also the deep trenches of the oceans off the coasts near areas where mountains have been built.

The "bound" (Hebrew: gbuwl) that the waters "may not pass over" in verse 9, I believe to be the continental shelves, which reduce the height of the waves that may come ashore!

It's like in an earthquake: That which is ready to topple will topple. Those areas which are more stable will get a good shaking, but will remain firm. In the Flood of Noach, those areas under pressure will have that equilibrium challenged. Those areas far enough away from fault lines will remain stable, for the most part.

The Flood's MAIN desvastation was the destruction of all air-breathing creatures and mankind that lived on the dry land. The fish and sea creatures, largely would have survived with little effects.

Regarding the archaological discoveries in the dried-up river bed of the Euphrates, one must be careful of one's conclusions. There were TWO civilizations in view: those who lived before the UNIVERSAL Flood, and those who lived AFTER the Flood! To which of these civilizations any ruins and artifacts one may find may be hard to ascertain.

During a devastating Flood of the magnitude described, it's hard to determine what the lay of the land might have been before the Flood. Rivers may not be exactly the same rivers as before, particularly in light of the mountain-building and the valley-deepening we see in these verses and in the earth; they may have just been named so, because the human beings after the Flood determined that they were in a particular location where that river they knew USED TO BE. 

Noach and his family DID come down off of that mountain, especially as the waters receded and the sea-level air-pressure with it. Plants are very hardy by God's design. It's extremely difficult to denude an area for very long. Seeds are resiliant, and all they need are some drops of water and favorable conditions to sprout. Noach and his family DID carry what they needed for food to survive the year of the Flood and the years to follow, but I'm sure they planted the seeds they brought for their own domestic use. We KNOW that Noach planted a vineyard and drank from the crop of that vineyard.

Genesis 9:20-28 (KJV)

20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25 And he said,

"Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren!"

26 And he said,

"Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."

28And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. 29And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

We are also told that he got drunk. We aren't told why, but I believe it was a mixture of things: First, he probably didn't realize how fast, in this new environment, the grapes would ferment. Second, let's face it. There was probably a good deal of death that didn't get buried under the sediment. How long can one be optimistic when one finds death surrounding him all the time? There weren't any people other than his own family, and he probably missed civilization, regardless how depraved it had become.

The Hebrew word for "and told" in verse 22 is "vayageed" meaning "and-he-made-it-conspicuous" to his older brothers.

So, on top of all that, which would lead to depression in most people, he lived for 350 more years!

[Retrobyter]

On 10/27/2022 at 4:33 AM, JohnR7 said:

They were able to electroplate gold back then. Although, it is a difficult and expensive process. The temple was gold-plated as the Dome is gold-plated today. The arch in Rome records how the temple was taken to Rome and used in the construction of the coliseum there. 

 

Shalom, JohnR7

Gold-plating CAN be done by electroplating, which was invented in 1805 A.D.

"Electroplating was invented in 1805 by Italian inventor Luigi V. Brugnatelli. He did this by linking a wire between a dissolved gold solution and a battery, also known as a Voltaic pile. A metal object was then connected to the wire, allowing the gold to become attached to it." (See A brief history of electroplating.)

But generally speaking, the plating of gold prior to that was done by a different process:

"The plating process in antiquity involved wrapping silver or a copper-based alloy with gold foil—that is, with a hammered gold sheet that could support its own weight and stand by itself when held in the hand. Depending on the thickness of the gold sheet or foil (more than 10 μm thick; Darque-Ceretti et al.)" (See ScienceDirect.com.)

IF there was something electroplated before the Flood, it had to be because of technology before the Flood that is unknown in archaeology today.

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

the fountains of the deep were broken up

God declares the end from the beginning. Then He watches over His word to see that it is fulfilled. Isaiah 46:10 - The fountains of the deep were broken up long before Noah, yet they still had an impact on him and his flood during his time.

Noah's flood took place when the Bering Strait gave way and the Persian Gulf was formed back in the day of Noah. 

 

[JohnR7]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

IF there was something electroplated before the Flood, it had to be because of technology before the Flood that is unknown in archaeology today.

I do not know what they used the Baghdad battery for, but it does go back 2,000 years. 2 - 6 volts is needed for electroplating. 

The Baghdad Battery is believed to be about 2000 years old (from the Parthian period, roughly 250 BCE to CE 250). The jar was found in Khujut Rabu just outside Baghdad and is composed of a clay jar with a stopper made of asphalt. Sticking through the asphalt is an iron rod surrounded by a copper cylinder.

There is no written record as to the exact function of the jar, but the best guess is that it was a type of battery. Scientists believe the batteries (if that is their correct function) were used to electroplate items such as putting a layer of one metal (gold) onto the surface of another (silver), a method still practiced in Iraq today.

My son and I played a little bit with making a battery out of a potato or lemon, but we did not do to0 much with that. It was just another one of our "science" experiments. I do restoration and I thought about restoring things that the plating had worn off, but never got around to messing with it. They also have a way to restore the bluing on a rifle barrel. 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 10/26/2022 at 8:03 PM, JohnR7 said:

I do not place science above the Bible. It is a method I use to understand the Bible. We have to interpret and translate the Bible. Even the Hebrew Bible has been modified before we even receive it. In the original Bible, there is no structure. There are no sentences, paragraphs or chapter. The Bible is like a song. Only the words are written down. The notes are a part of the oral tradition and were not written down. 

 

Shalom, JohnR7.

We don't need to "interpret and translate the Bible" that often! To the contrary, one should take what the Bible has to say at face value! Take it literally! There may be a few things that are taken as symbolic, but for the most part, we need to learn what the Bible had to say!

Furthermore, there's more structure to Biblical Hebrew than you're acknowledging. The connective vav (ו) at the beginning of each "sentence" keeps the parts together of what might be constituted a "paragraph." When a section starts with something else, chances are good that you've started a new paragraph. The end of a topical passage is ended with a pei (פ). A common practice in Hebrew is to begin a topic with the main points, like listing the main points of an outline. Then, the text will go into the details, the subpoints of that outline.

There is poetry and lyrics to songs found in the Writings - the Ketuwviym (the "K/kh" part of the "Tanakh") - such as the Psalms, Song of Songs, and the Proverbs. There, the text is written in couplets, which are either synonymous (where the second line of the couplet uses synonyms and phrases to restate the first line), antonymous (where the second line gives the opposite results of the first line), or emphatically repeated (where the second line strengthens the first line). Occasionally, a couplet might be syllogistic; that is, giving the proposition or propositions in the first line, and the conclusion in the second. Sometimes, they are conditional, where the first line is the condition and the second line is the consequent.

 

[JohnR7]

1 minute ago, Retrobyter said:

literally! There may be a few things that are taken as symbolic

Jesus made it very clear that: And said: "I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3. I figure he was talking about children at a fifth grade level. They can only understand the literal Bible. After that the brain develops and thinking becomes more abstract. That is when we start to understand the symbolic meaning of the Bible. 

 

[JohnR7]

18 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

A common practice in Hebrew is to begin a topic with the main points

Yes, I always look at the first letter. For example the Bible begins with the Letter B which represents a tent or tabernacle. God's desire is to dwell with or be a part of His Creation. That is why we need to be holy, sanctified and set apart from the world because God is Holy. Jesus the Son of God is the Door. So He decides who enters into the Tent or Tabernacle to commune with God.