The Sower - misunderstood

[Dan Knight]

2 hours ago, DPMartin said:

maybe you think this is about winning an argument, not so here, my posting is merly an FYI on darby

Or both? JN 3:1,2- Within them saying Nicodemus,  as a practicing Pharisee,  told Jesus that they know that He has come from God. Evidenced by His miracles and deeds. The difference is that they are practicing Pharisees.

Among them, Matt 18:20- "..there am I, (Jesus who is not a practicing Pharisee), in the midst, (among) them".

Jesus was mentioned as being in the midst, and among a few times. 

?

Edited September 12, 2022 by Dan Knight

[DPMartin]

2 hours ago, Dan Knight said:

Or both? JN 3:1,2- Within them saying Nicodemus,  as a practicing Pharisee,  told Jesus that they know that He has come from God. Evidenced by His miracles and deeds. The difference is that they are practicing Pharisees.

Among them, Matt 18:20- "..there am I, (Jesus who is not a practicing Pharisee), in the midst, (among) them".

Jesus was mentioned as being in the midst, and among a few times. 

?

The Sanhedrin was supposed to be made up of Pharisees and Sadducees and the like and they didn’t all agree on who Jesus really was at that time, it was the job of the Sanhedrin to first send personal to listen to some one claiming to be the messiah and then if warranted they would send the qualified to question the posable messiah. Then they were supposed to convene and decide if a person claiming to be Son of God really was and I am told that somewhere in the law or instruction conveyed by Moses if someone claims to be Son of God and wasn’t they were to put him to death.  I got That info in a video by the president of a Jewish Christian university in Israel, their videos are called “One for Israel”, their testimonies are informative.

Also, the relationship between the high priest and roman authority goes back to the Maccabees Judas, who was called Maccabeus was high priest and was always waring with those around them after the death of alexander the great, because basically it was open season on the men who were circumcised boys who were circumcised and their mothers. As in killing them. Judas recognized that the romans were showing capability in war so he made a covenant with Rome at that time and it lasted till after Jesus left the world. Hence why Pilate was dealing with the high priest and not Herod.

 

Interesting factoid though, most gentiles are under the impression that it was over for Israel after Titus in 70 ad trashed Jerusalem and desecrated the temple but actually it was in 125 ad the Sanhedrin declared someone who was rousting a rebellion against the romans to be the messiah and expected every jew to follow into battle whereas the followers in Jesus didn’t because they didn’t agree that that guy was the messiah and historically and in their document Jewish Christians are considered traders. I got that info from the same source of “One for Israel”

 

So to say the Sanhedrin though some members had an open mind on Jesus, believed Jesus was the Beloved Son of God the messiah is not shown in the bible, though Jesus did address some of the members in public that He knew they knew that Jesus met the requirements to be considered. Just like when they would test Him and His words that was their job to do so. And when it says they didn’t inquire of Him anymore, that’s when their examination was complete in their judgement.

[Dan Knight]

1 minute ago, DPMartin said:

The Sanhedrin was supposed to be made up of Pharisees and Sadducees and the like and they didn’t all agree on who Jesus really was at that time, it was the job of the Sanhedrin to first send personal to listen to some one claiming to be the messiah and then if warranted they would send the qualified to question the posable messiah. Then they were supposed to convene and decide if a person claiming to be Son of God really was and I am told that somewhere in the law or instruction conveyed by Moses if someone claims to be Son of God and wasn’t they were to put him to death.  I got That info in a video by the president of a Jewish Christian university in Israel, their videos are called “One for Israel”, their testimonies are informative.

Also, the relationship between the high priest and roman authority goes back to the Maccabees Judas, who was called Maccabeus was high priest and was always waring with those around them after the death of alexander the great, because basically it was open season on the men who were circumcised boys who were circumcised and their mothers. As in killing them. Judas recognized that the romans were showing capability in war so he made a covenant with Rome at that time and it lasted till after Jesus left the world. Hence why Pilate was dealing with the high priest and not Herod.

 

Interesting factoid though, most gentiles are under the impression that it was over for Israel after Titus in 70 ad trashed Jerusalem and desecrated the temple but actually it was in 125 ad the Sanhedrin declared someone who was rousting a rebellion against the romans to be the messiah and expected every jew to follow into battle whereas the followers in Jesus didn’t because they didn’t agree that that guy was the messiah and historically and in their document Jewish Christians are considered traders. I got that info from the same source of “One for Israel”

 

So to say the Sanhedrin though some members had an open mind on Jesus, believed Jesus was the Beloved Son of God the messiah is not shown in the bible, though Jesus did address some of the members in public that He knew they knew that Jesus met the requirements to be considered. Just like when they would test Him and His words that was their job to do so. And when it says they didn’t inquire of Him anymore, that’s when their examination was complete in their judgement.

Nicodemus didn't acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, rather as being from God, because of the miraculus things He was doing.  Hence, they accomplished the kingdom,  as being represented by Jesus who they say is from God is within them. Not their heart of hearts, but within their group.

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

You say, `But that men will be transported to heaven, remain there and rule from there has no place in scripture.`

And therein lies the `battle` for the final truth to be received by the Body of Christ.

Here are the scriptures for the High calling, (on top calling) in Christ.

THE BODY OF CHRIST`S INHERITANCE IS IN HEAVEN.

Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.

 `...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )

` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)

` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)

` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)

 

Finally - `...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if by any means, I may attain to the resurrection of the dead.

Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on. That I may lay hold of that which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press towards the goal of the prize of the upward, (on top) call of God in Christ Jesus.

Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything YOU THINK OTHERWISE, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.` (Phil. 3: 10 - 16)

I believe this would be both our desire. Marilyn.

 

Thank you for your comprehensive answers. You've gone to much trouble. And yes, "swapping ideas" is better replaced by "a quest for the truth". Your counter arguments never actually addressed what I said, so I'll just answer the scriptures you gave. Example, the Lord took away the Kingdom from Israel, and "ethnos" and gave it to AN-OTHER "ethnos". This you spent not a word on. Your argument made the Pharisees an "ethnos", but localized and divorced from Israel. All this in the face of our Lord's accusation that he held the Pharisees accountable for all shed blood since the murder of Abel (Matt.23:35; Lk.11:51).

But the reader notices these things, so lets' move on and deal with the four scriptures you posted o the above posting.

The first scripture from 1st Peter does not say anything about heaven being the final destiny of any man. It deals with TWO salvations needed for your inheritance, namely (i) the resurrection from the dead, or the salvation reserved for the "last time", and (ii) the salvation of the soul needed to think, feel and decide like Jesus so that you are found a worthy co-king in the Millennium. The "inheritance" is the rank or position of co-king with Jesus. This, like a title deed, is reserved in heaven with the Judge - Jesus TILL HIS APPEARING.

Paul shows this in 2nd Timothy 1-8 ...

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; ... 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul does not go to heaven to get his crown. He receives it a the "appearing" of Jesus. I too had a will in which my children will be partakers. I is "reserved" in a bank lock-up and with the civil authorities. At my death the document which is reserved in custody will be produced.

You have again, not only failed to bring a scripture showing heaven as man's destiny, but you have read an incorrect meaning into a very important scripture.

The second is Colossians 1:5. Again, the "inheritance" is laid up in heaven, but not a word is said of us going there to sit on it for ever. The word "inheritance" is almost exclusively used in the Old Testament to mean the Land of Canaan. The only other inheritance is that the priests have no "inheritance" in the Land. God would be their inheritance and they would receive 12 tenths from the remainder of Israel.

In the New Testament, with few exceptions, our "inheritance" is the EARTH (Rom.4:13) and/or the Kingdom of Heaven. With many proofs the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven (not IN Heaven), (i) was at hand for Israel when Christ came, (ii) was among men in Israel on earth when demons were cast out, (iii) will come to earth if our Lord's prayer is answered, (iv) will fill the earth (Dan.2:35, 44),

Ephesians 2:6 is present continuous tense! Are you in heaven as you argue this point with me? Have you been raised with Christ. Ephesians 2:6 does not say that our final destiny is heaven. I've handled this point before so I will not repeat the meaning. By not giving its true meaning you create an absurdity.

Philippians 3:20 does not say that our final destination is heaven. It tells the opposite. If we must WAIT for our Savior FROM heaven then it is clear from the grammar that we will meet the Lord where we are. That our citizenship is heavenly does not say that we will go there. It confirms that we are the correct "ethnos" to bring the Kingdom of HEAVEN to earth. Our birth is from above, our calling is from heaven, our Savior is from heaven, our High Priest is from heaven and His speaking is from heaven. The last governor was an angel from heaven, but ruled the earth. Heaven is God's Throne. The previous government was "principalities in heavenly places" which our Lord Jesus made a shew of ON EARTH".

Not one of your proffered scriptures says that our destiny is heaven. That God's throne is the seat of His government over the whole universe is not disputed. Revelation 3:21 does not affirm that our Lord's throne is in heaven. Note the grammar of Matthew 25:31

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, ..., then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

If we sit with Him in His throne judging the nations, it too will be AFTER HE COMES.

Your last scripture from Philippians puzzled me. Paul deals with the same theme as 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 - the resurrection and rapture. But this has very little to do with our destiny for we are (1) raptured to the clouds to meet the Lord who has COME to the clouds, and then (2) we follow Him back to earth as Enoch said in Jude (1st Thess.4:14, Jude 14). You have taken an example that defeats your claim outright.

But I might have read you wrong because it could be construed as conciliatory. I think that we are of one mind - maybe not on where our destiny lies, but to live a holy life and seek the truth at all times.

God bless.

 

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, DPMartin said:

maybe you think this is about winning an argument, not so here, my posting is merly an FYI on darby

I hear you. My fallen nature sometimes makes me go too far. It is not my job to defend Darby.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your comprehensive answers. You've gone to much trouble. And yes, "swapping ideas" is better replaced by "a quest for the truth". Your counter arguments never actually addressed what I said, so I'll just answer the scriptures you gave. Example, the Lord took away the Kingdom from Israel, and "ethnos" and gave it to AN-OTHER "ethnos". This you spent not a word on. Your argument made the Pharisees an "ethnos", but localized and divorced from Israel. All this in the face of our Lord's accusation that he held the Pharisees accountable for all shed blood since the murder of Abel (Matt.23:35; Lk.11:51).

 

 

Hi  Ad Hoc,

Glad we are both on the `quest for truth.` Now I am not aware of missing any of your  questions. If I have could you please write it again, thank you.

Question. You said -

Example, the Lord took away the Kingdom from Israel, and "ethnos" and gave it to AN-OTHER "ethnos". This you spent not a word on. Your argument made the Pharisees an "ethnos", but localized and divorced from Israel. All this in the face of our Lord's accusation that he held the Pharisees accountable for all shed blood since the murder of Abel (Matt.23:35; Lk.11:51).

I was not making the Pharisees an `ethnos,` but the chief priests and the elders, to whom the Lord was addressing, they were the rulership of Israel at that time. (Matt. 21: 23) The blood of all the prophets `shall be required of this generation.` (Luke 11: 51) (as you said).

The prophet Daniel wrote that the Messiah would come after the 69 x 7 weeks of years. (Dan. 9: 24 & 25) The chief priest and elders did not receive their Messiah and even though God gave them more time they did not receive the Holy Spirit who would have opened their eyes to whom Jesus was - their Messiah. (Acts 28: 17 - 28)  

A few years later the Romans destroyed the Temple and the Jews scattered among the nations to this day, (though some are in the land of Israel.)

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

The first scripture from 1st Peter does not say anything about heaven being the final destiny of any man. It deals with TWO salvations needed for your inheritance, namely (i) the resurrection from the dead, or the salvation reserved for the "last time", and (ii) the salvation of the soul needed to think, feel and decide like Jesus so that you are found a worthy co-king in the Millennium. The "inheritance" is the rank or position of co-king with Jesus. This, like a title deed, is reserved in heaven with the Judge - Jesus TILL HIS APPEARING.

Paul shows this in 2nd Timothy 1-8 ...

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; ... 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul does not go to heaven to get his crown. He receives it a the "appearing" of Jesus. I too had a will in which my children will be partakers. I is "reserved" in a bank lock-up and with the civil authorities. At my death the document which is reserved in custody will be produced.

You have again, not only failed to bring a scripture showing heaven as man's destiny, but you have read an incorrect meaning into a very important scripture.

 

 

1 Peter 1: 4

`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )

You said -

The first scripture from 1st Peter does not say anything about heaven being the final destiny of any man.

So we agree that it speaks of our inheritance reserved in heaven and we need more information as to the Body of Christ being our final destination.

Then you say that our `inheritance` is as a co-king. This is only half correct. We will actually be kingpriests. (Rev. 1: 6)  Jesus is the King(High)Priest, (Heb. 6: 20,  7: 1 & 2) Those two offices are together in the Body of Christ and are ONLY so in the third heaven.

In the other areas of God`s great kingdom, there will be some who are kings and some priests. Those offices are separate. They always were on earth.

You then go on to talk about Paul receiving his crown of righteousness at the Lord`s appearing and not in heaven. (2 Tim. 4: 8)

`I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.`

There are actually 5 crowns for believer`s reward. And they will be given out at the Bema seat of Christ which is in heaven.

`For we must all appear before the judgment (bema) seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.` (2 Cor. 5: 10)

 

Judgment Seat - Gk. `bema,` a rostrum. Judgment for rewards or loss.

`each one`s work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one`s work, of what sort it is.

If any one`s work which he has built on it endures , he will receive a reward. If any one`s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet as through fire.` (1 Cor. 3: 13 - 15)

So those `work`s` are those done by the enabling of the Holy Spirit and not for self aggrandizement. And the Bema seat is Christ`s throne in heaven.  

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

The second is Colossians 1:5. Again, the "inheritance" is laid up in heaven, but not a word is said of us going there to sit on it for ever. The word "inheritance" is almost exclusively used in the Old Testament to mean the Land of Canaan. The only other inheritance is that the priests have no "inheritance" in the Land. God would be their inheritance and they would receive 12 tenths from the remainder of Israel.

In the New Testament, with few exceptions, our "inheritance" is the EARTH (Rom.4:13) and/or the Kingdom of Heaven. With many proofs the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven (not IN Heaven), (i) was at hand for Israel when Christ came, (ii) was among men in Israel on earth when demons were cast out, (iii) will come to earth if our Lord's prayer is answered, (iv) will fill the earth (Dan.2:35, 44),

 

 

Colossians 1: 5

` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)

Yes we need more scriptures to show that the Body of Christ`s inheritance is in heaven.

Rom. 4: 13 speaks of the descendants of Abraham who looked for the city by faith. (Heb. 11: 16). These are the OT saints.

Yes the kingdom rule of heaven by Christ came to earth, was demonstrated, as you say, but was not received. God will deal with the rebellious and still set up His righteous rule through Christ over Israel in the millennium and the NHNE.

 

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

Ephesians 2:6 is present continuous tense! Are you in heaven as you argue this point with me? Have you been raised with Christ. Ephesians 2:6 does not say that our final destiny is heaven. I've handled this point before so I will not repeat the meaning. By not giving its true meaning you create an absurdity.

Philippians 3:20 does not say that our final destination is heaven. It tells the opposite. If we must WAIT for our Savior FROM heaven then it is clear from the grammar that we will meet the Lord where we are. That our citizenship is heavenly does not say that we will go there. It confirms that we are the correct "ethnos" to bring the Kingdom of HEAVEN to earth. Our birth is from above, our calling is from heaven, our Savior is from heaven, our High Priest is from heaven and His speaking is from heaven. The last governor was an angel from heaven, but ruled the earth. Heaven is God's Throne. The previous government was "principalities in heavenly places" which our Lord Jesus made a shew of ON EARTH".

 

 

Ephesians.

` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)

I agree we are not physically in heaven, however being part of the spiritual organism, the Body of Christ, our spiritual position is in Christ in heaven.

`For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body - whether Jew or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.....

Now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased....Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually.` (1 Cor. 12: 12, 13,  18 & 27)

 

Philippians

` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)

Citizenship. Gk. `Politeuma,` a community, citizenship.

You say that - It confirms that we are the correct "ethnos" to bring the Kingdom of HEAVEN to earth.

That scripture says nothing about us bringing heaven to earth. It tells us that our `citizenship, our community, IS IN HEAVEN.`

 

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The last governor was an angel from heaven, but ruled the earth. Heaven is God's Throne. The previous government was "principalities in heavenly places" which our Lord Jesus made a shew of ON EARTH".

Not one of your proffered scriptures says that our destiny is heaven. That God's throne is the seat of His government over the whole universe is not disputed. Revelation 3:21 does not affirm that our Lord's throne is in heaven. Note the grammar of Matthew 25:31

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, ..., then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

If we sit with Him in His throne judging the nations, it too will be AFTER HE COMES.

Your last scripture from Philippians puzzled me. Paul deals with the same theme as 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 - the resurrection and rapture. But this has very little to do with our destiny for we are (1) raptured to the clouds to meet the Lord who has COME to the clouds, and then (2) we follow Him back to earth as Enoch said in Jude (1st Thess.4:14, Jude 14). You have taken an example that defeats your claim outright.

But I might have read you wrong because it could be construed as conciliatory. I think that we are of one mind - maybe not on where our destiny lies, but to live a holy life and seek the truth at all times.

God bless.

 

You go on to say -

The last governor was an angel from heaven, but ruled the earth. Heaven is God's Throne. The previous government was "principalities in heavenly places" which our Lord Jesus made a shew of ON EARTH".

Satan is not the `governor` ruling the earth. He usurped `sway` over man.

`the whole world lies under the SWAY of the wicked one.` (1 John 5: 19)

 

Finally you say - Note the grammar of Matthew 25:31

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, ..., then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

You say - If we sit with Him in His throne judging the nations, it too will be AFTER HE COMES.

The Lord`s throne/authority there is NOT of this world. No one on earth gave Him His seat of power and authority. It is the Father who has set His Son on the heavenly Mount Zion and it is of that authority that the Lord will judge the rebellious on the earth when He comes in great power and glory. (Ps. 2: 2: 6   Heb. 12: 22)

Jude 14 are Holy Ones, and they can be angels or saints. Thus we need other scriptures to confirm which.

Jesus said -

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..`                         (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.`  (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

 

The Philippians scripture was to affirm that we are both seeking truth by the Holy Spirit.

Regards, Marilyn.