Ask Me Anything About Christianity

[Dan Knight]

1 hour ago, com7fy8 said:

Ah-hah!

Yes, they needed to know he was not just asleep. 

But the true meaning of "dead" would be that someone is gone so he or she can not ever return, right?

Being "dead" can mean not conscious in this life. When Jesus was "dead", was He not still alive spiritually??

No. 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

Ah-hah!

Yes, they needed to know he was not just asleep. 

But the true meaning of "dead" would be that someone is gone so he or she can not ever return, right?

Being "dead" can mean not conscious in this life. When Jesus was "dead", was He not still alive spiritually??

Yes to the first paragraph and no to the second and the third we need to discuss...

God bless.

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

To: gotquestions@starize.org  www.wookiee.org

Much to ponder, digest, and discuss well above my pay grade. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord if one is saved. Where is Jesus right now, at the right hand of the Father.

In Revelation, martyred souls are under the altar, asking how long. I understand that souls and spirits have a form. Our physical bodies enable us to be animate, giving us mobility and interaction in the 3-D world we were created to operate.

Using the rich man in Hades as an example, he had all his physical senses and emotions. He will not be bodily resurrected until the Great White Throne judgment. Those souls under the alter also have their senses and emotions, agreed?

In the OT, Hades seems to have two compartments, Abraham’s bosom, and torment. Both were confinement and isolation to a particular prescribed area, and in all three examples, they are or seem to be confinement.

Here’s my question for “the answer, man?”  😊

Spirits and souls are ethereal, with no means for animation of movement or physically interacting. Can our souls | and spirits relocate and move at will and interact in a physical sense? Why do we look forward to glorified bodies if these souls are animate and can move and do things?

A dumb mind like mine is a terrible thing to waste.

This is the passage in the revelation that correspond to the context of the first paragraph..is at, rev 6:9-11 posted below..

The amazing thing in verse 11 is that it predicted the great tribulation that was coming in their generations...

(John earlier referred to the tribulation his generation went through and in verse 9 we see the harvest of the souls of those who had the testimony of Jesus...killed for Jesus...and in verse 11 they are told another great number will be soon added to them fortelling the great tribulations of the next generation that lasted at the least three centuries and a half...(the three and a half years) that a lot more believers will be killed for the testimony of Jesus...and in verse 9 the were said to the souls of the martyrs THANKS GOD THEY WERE NOT SLEEPING to be patient and wait...for them..

If that tribulation was not ended by the intervention of Jesus the faith would have been in great trouble...

Thanks for bringing this up.

God bless 

Revelation 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Have you read anything about those in heaven that made you think the souls didn't have bodies,  and if so what was it?

Have you read anything about those in heaven that made you think the souls had a body?  

Now, compare your lists. 

WHAT does the preponderance of the evidence,  USING only GODS WORDS, PERSUADE you to believe?  



 

The preponderance of the evidence is there are spiritual bodies, corrupted flesh bodies, glorified bodies, and forms. Forms; c.f. Job 4:16; Eze. 10:8; Mark 16:12.

FORM  -  3671 μορφή (morphē), ῆς (ēs), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ Str 3444; TDNT 4.742

            1.         LN 58.2 nature, character (Php 2:6, 7+), for another interp, see next;

            2.         LN 58.15 visual form, outward appearance (Php 2:6, 7+; Mk 16:12 v.r.), for another interp, see prior^[1]

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

A picture is an image, a likeness, a representation, a form, and a photograph can meet the criteria of the above definition with detail.

When we depart our corrupted flesh bodies, they are left behind; we do not receive our glorified bodies until the harpazo. By that thought and definition, we are bodiless between the two, I surmise. That is a point I am making, no physical body.

I didn’t say I think this or believe that; I used the word understand, as in interpretation (hermeneutics).

Quid pro quo, show me where they do have bodies.

 

---

^[1] Swanson, James. Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) 1997: n. pag. Print.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

To: gotquestions@starize.org  www.wookiee.org

Much to ponder, digest, and discuss well above my pay grade. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord if one is saved. Where is Jesus right now, at the right hand of the Father.

In Revelation, martyred souls are under the altar, asking how long. I understand that souls and spirits have a form. Our physical bodies enable us to be animate, giving us mobility and interaction in the 3-D world we were created to operate.

Using the rich man in Hades as an example, he had all his physical senses and emotions. He will not be bodily resurrected until the Great White Throne judgment. Those souls under the alter also have their senses and emotions, agreed?

In the OT, Hades seems to have two compartments, Abraham’s bosom, and torment. Both were confinement and isolation to a particular prescribed area, and in all three examples, they are or seem to be confinement.

Here’s my question for “the answer, man?”  😊

Spirits and souls are ethereal, with no means for animation of movement or physically interacting. Can our souls | and spirits relocate and move at will and interact in a physical sense? Why do we look forward to glorified bodies if these souls are animate and can move and do things?

A dumb mind like mine is a terrible thing to waste.

Another go at the first paragraph of your post...

We should considered the following that the martyrs who were" under the altar" we posed for a while for the s scripture does not put them in any other place as those who were leading the music playing the harps and neither puts them together with the elders or the other servants of the Gospel who had died a natural death..

The martyrs were "under the altar" with that the scripture is trying to tell us something...there is a message in that statement...it's like that they were made a sacrifice unto to Jesus...

They were killed for the testimony of Jesus Christ...

And they were those who were also crucified and decapitated and left unburied to be spit upon and received insults and were eaten by the vultures and sometimes still alive..and others were burned and others devoured by the lions...and this is the most amazing thing being their under the altar having first place before Jesus they never said anything about their earthly bodies...and there nothing to suggest that they had any desire for them...and do not make me say it...they never had any desire to live on earth...never asking Jesus about anything of those things...Jesus dressed them up as they were with white robes...

That says something..we should not ignore it because this is written in Heaven...which takes president over anything else written in the bible...

And no promise was made to them...and nothing mention of what we read in other parts of the bible...

Their souls were dressed in white robes ...there is something big there...we cannot ignore it..and nothing about being asked to fall asleep. 

The souls under the altar had all their memories of what they went through...they remember everything and they must...and it seems that there is no night and no sleep in Heaven...

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[DeighAnn]

15 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

The preponderance of the evidence is there are spiritual bodies, corrupted flesh bodies, glorified bodies, and forms. Forms; c.f. Job 4:16; Eze. 10:8; Mark 16:12.

FORM  -  3671 μορφή (morphē), ῆς (ēs), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ Str 3444; TDNT 4.742

            1.         LN 58.2 nature, character (Php 2:6, 7+), for another interp, see next;

            2.         LN 58.15 visual form, outward appearance (Php 2:6, 7+; Mk 16:12 v.r.), for another interp, see prior^[1]

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

A picture is an image, a likeness, a representation, a form, and a photograph can meet the criteria of the above definition with detail.

When we depart our corrupted flesh bodies, they are left behind; we do not receive our glorified bodies until the harpazo. By that thought and definition, we are bodiless between the two, I surmise. That is a point I am making, no physical body.

I didn’t say I think this or believe that; I used the word understand, as in interpretation (hermeneutics).

Quid pro quo, show me where they do have bodies.

 

---

^[1] Swanson, James. Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) 1997: n. pag. Print.

 OK 
1.  Show you where they have bodies in HEAVEN


One place
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

A 2nd place
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto Me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.



Another place
Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.



3rd witness
anastasis - a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Matt 22:28
Answering now Jesus said to them You err not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God

in for the resurrection neither do marry nor are given in marriage but like angels of God in heaven they are

Concerning now the resurrection of the dead, not have you read that which has been spoken to you by God saying

I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?

NOT He is the God of [the] dead but of [the] living

Not of their SPIRITS but of THEM.

Receiving our glorified spiritual bodies 

 comes at DEATH AND RESURRECT aka rising up, being raised. 

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee

2ND WITNESS

John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


GLORIFIED is done at DEATH  -  NOT RESURRECTION  at return of Christ


SPIRITUAL BODY is given at same time EARTHLY BODY is sown.  

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

There isn't even a question if it is 'spirit OR body', the ONLY QUESTION is what body.  

 

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.

We glorify God at death, 
Flesh death produces a grain
God gives every seed a body





 

[Dan Knight]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 OK 
1.  Show you where they have bodies in HEAVEN


One place
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

A 2nd place
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto Me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.



Another place
Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.



3rd witness
anastasis - a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Matt 22:28
Answering now Jesus said to them You err not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God

in for the resurrection neither do marry nor are given in marriage but like angels of God in heaven they are

Concerning now the resurrection of the dead, not have you read that which has been spoken to you by God saying

I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?

NOT He is the God of [the] dead but of [the] living

Not of their SPIRITS but of THEM.

Receiving our glorified spiritual bodies 

 comes at DEATH AND RESURRECT aka rising up, being raised. 

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee

2ND WITNESS

John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


GLORIFIED is done at DEATH  -  NOT RESURRECTION  at return of Christ


SPIRITUAL BODY is given at same time EARTHLY BODY is sown.  

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

There isn't even a question if it is 'spirit OR body', the ONLY QUESTION is what body.  

 

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.

We glorify God at death, 
Flesh death produces a grain
God gives every seed a body





 

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.

Strong's Concordance

apothnéskó: to die

Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Definition: to die
Usage: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.

HELPS Word-studies

599 apothnḗskō (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – properly, die off (away from), focusing on the separation that goes with the "dying off (away from)."

599 /apothnḗskō ("die off, from") occurs 111 times in the NT. It stresses the significance of the separation that always comes with divine closure. 599 (apothnḗskō) stresses the ending of what is "former" – to bring what (naturally) follows.

A seed is not dead. Although it has a shelf life, what is encased within the shell is very much alive. It is lying dormant, sleeping, awaiting its time to awaken,  resurrect.. 

Cool?

Edited October 5, 2022 by Dan Knight

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Dan Knight said:

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.

Strong's Concordance

apothnéskó: to die

Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Definition: to die
Usage: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.

HELPS Word-studies

599 apothnḗskō (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – properly, die off (away from), focusing on the separation that goes with the "dying off (away from)."

599 /apothnḗskō ("die off, from") occurs 111 times in the NT. It stresses the significance of the separation that always comes with divine closure. 599 (apothnḗskō) stresses the ending of what is "former" – to bring what (naturally) follows.

A seed is not dead. Although it has a shelf life, what is encased within the shell is very much alive. It is lying dormant, sleeping, awaiting its time to awaken,  resurrect.. 

Cool?

Except THAT isn't what is written. 

It is written  this body produces a seed and to every seed, God gives a body.  

Doesn't say 'will give a body AFTER it has remained in the corruption, 

Where is it written ONLY THE SPIRIT of us is resurrected?  We are told a living soul is body and breath.  Do we cease to be a living soul even though we never die?  

Look how insane THIS COMES ACROSS.  

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So, does the body lying in the corruption receive these things or does the breath bring it back?  HOW COME THERE IS NOT A WORD ABOUT THE TWO BEING BROUGHT TOGETHER?  Doesn't that bother anyone?  

Is ANYONE SEEING WHY no one is believing in GOD ANYMORE?  

We have two bodies. One for here and one for there.  Our first one dies but WE DON'T USE the one we were GIVEN SPECIFICALLY for the place we are going.  Instead it rests in the corruption WITH ALL THE DEAD so it can BE RAISED UP from there.   WOW, that's alot of resurrections. 


It is written IF IT COMES FROM CORRUPTION it isn't made immortal, does it or does it not say that?  Have I gotten that wrong?  Why won't anyone mention it?  

WHEN exactly did you die and resurrect?  When did that 'seed' come about?  When you were made a 'new creature' perhaps?  When you were saved?  


  

[Starise]

12 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

To: gotquestions@starize.org  www.wookiee.org

Much to ponder, digest, and discuss well above my pay grade. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord if one is saved. Where is Jesus right now, at the right hand of the Father.

In Revelation, martyred souls are under the altar, asking how long. I understand that souls and spirits have a form. Our physical bodies enable us to be animate, giving us mobility and interaction in the 3-D world we were created to operate.

Using the rich man in Hades as an example, he had all his physical senses and emotions. He will not be bodily resurrected until the Great White Throne judgment. Those souls under the alter also have their senses and emotions, agreed?

In the OT, Hades seems to have two compartments, Abraham’s bosom, and torment. Both were confinement and isolation to a particular prescribed area, and in all three examples, they are or seem to be confinement.

Here’s my question for “the answer, man?”  😊

Spirits and souls are ethereal, with no means for animation of movement or physically interacting. Can our souls | and spirits relocate and move at will and interact in a physical sense? Why do we look forward to glorified bodies if these souls are animate and can move and do things?

A dumb mind like mine is a terrible thing to waste.

Oh there's a wookie .org? Cool!

The mind of any bible student tends to try and work through the various texts and meanings and make the pieces all fit together correctly, and we all mostly think we are going at it in an unbiased way UNLESS we are attempting to shoehorn a desirable answer over a correct one. I know you are not such a person and I think you bring up a good point.

In my studies so far, I have tried to avoid my inner bias that wants there to be a  time between when we are dead to when we are raised in those new bodies that we are all fully lucid. I don't want the answer I want. I want the correct answer.

If the text is literal we look at it a different way than if it isn't, and if there's any book where we really need to be on the lookout for this, it's Revelation. Much of Revelation is A. Not is sequential order and B. Not literal.

Much the same way as we need to analyze the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, we need to look at the meanings the text conveys.

Some have incorrectly said these are all tribulation saints. I don't read that in the text. These look to be martyrs going back from the beginning of Christian martyrdom.

 Rev. 6:9-11

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Probably one of my first approaches to this text would be to look at what John observed at the opening of the other seals, were his other visions of seals opened representative, or figurative? This would establish the continuity of the seals and how they maybe should be viewed. I would also consider all other texts both close surrounding and in other places.

All of the seals are horses up until the 5th seal. The seals are said to cover eras and periods of time. The first 4 seals are depictions of events and in this case, there is a definite sequence. Jesus is the only one qualified to open the seals. Most will say the first horse is Jesus. But I recently heard one brother say he thought the white horse was the anti christ or man of sin. That's probably another discussion. I'll just say that since this is sequential, this is telling to me. Who comes conquering and to conquer in the beginning? 

Whether you see the seals as being larger swaths of history as many do, or you see them as shorter spans of time within a short count down to the end, I think we can agree the seals up until seal 5 all begin with a figurative horse tied to real events.

Horses are generally tied to battle and the powers behind it. These would be spiritual powers likely working through world powers that cause these things to happen.

Even though the 5th seal breaks up what was a parade of figurative horses, I don't believe we can discount some symbolism or representation in the 5th seal, unless we say that suddenly at the 5th seal everything is literal after being figurative. To be fair the horses are figurative. The events caused by the horses are not.

Compared to the prior 4 seals the 5th seal seems rather uneventful so far as the world stage is concerned. 

Every martyr since there have been martyrs has probably said this right before their head goes on the chopping block. The REASON for the wait here was because unfortunately, others are to be killed for the cause of Christ. Verse 11 tells us the wait will not be much longer. "A little longer".

In looking at the Greek words here, I'm going to say this passage is representative of a TESTIMONY. John is having visions and he sees an altar. The altar has deeper meaning. It's a place for sacrifices. These brave men and women have made the ultimate sacrifice, and are therefore at the altar. This emphasizes their position and the white robes further emphasize their standing. My reading the Greek rendering of the text leads me to the conclusion that this is much the same as when we say, the voices of the unborn cry out to us, or the example we have in Genesis where the Lord says the blood of Abel cries to Him from the grave.

There is a sense of injustice having been done, like the parable of the owner of a wine vineyard who send his workers to check the work. They are all killed, so He sends His very son who is also killed.

This is the injustice, the fate of the victims and the restitution that has been a long time in coming. 

God is ready to tread the winepress of His wrath on an evil unrepentant murdering world. The 5th seal is both a testimony and a reminder as to why the next seals and trumpets will be coming on the earth.

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Starise

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

Oh there's a wookie .org? Cool!

The mind of any bible student tends to try and work through the various texts and meanings and make the pieces all fit together correctly, and we all mostly think we are going at it in an unbiased way UNLESS we are attempting to shoehorn a desirable answer over a correct one. I know you are not such a person and I think you bring up a good point.

In my studies so far, I have tried to avoid my inner bias that wants there to be a  time between when we are dead to when we are raised in those new bodies that we are all fully lucid. I don't want the answer I want. I want the correct answer.

If the text is literal we look at it a different way than if it isn't, and if there's any book where we really need to be on the lookout for this, it's Revelation. Much of Revelation is A. Not is sequential order and B. Not literal.

Much the same way as we need to analyze the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, we need to look at the meanings the text conveys.

Some have incorrectly said these are all tribulation saints. I don't read that in the text. These look to be martyrs going back from the beginning of Christian martyrdom.

 Rev. 6:9-11

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Probably one of my first approaches to this text would be to look at what John observed at the opening of the other seals, were his other visions of seals opened representative, or figurative? This would establish the continuity of the seals and how they maybe should be viewed. I would also consider all other texts both close surrounding and in other places.

All of the seals are horses up until the 5th seal. The seals are said to cover eras and periods of time. The first 4 seals are depictions of events and in this case, there is a definite sequence. Jesus is the only one qualified to open the seals. Most will say the first horse is Jesus. But I recently heard one brother say he thought the white horse was the anti christ or man of sin. That's probably another discussion. I'll just say that since this is sequential, this is telling to me. Who comes conquering and to conquer in the beginning? 

Whether you see the seals as being larger swaths of history as many do, or you see them as shorter spans of time within a short count down to the end, I think we can agree the seals up until seal 5 all begin with a figurative horse tied to real events.

Horses are generally tied to battle and the powers behind it. These would be spiritual powers likely working through world powers that cause these things to happen.

Even though the 5th seal breaks up what was a parade of figurative horses, I don't believe we can discount some symbolism or representation in the 5th seal, unless we say that suddenly at the 5th seal everything is literal after being figurative. To be fair the horses are figurative. The events caused by the horses are not.

Compared to the prior 4 seals the 5th seal seems rather uneventful so far as the world stage is concerned. 

Every martyr since there have been martyrs has probably said this right before their head goes on the chopping block. The REASON for the wait here was because unfortunately, others are to be killed for the cause of Christ. Verse 11 tells us the wait will not be much longer. "A little longer".

In looking at the Greek words here, I'm going to say this passage is representative of a TESTIMONY. John is having visions and he sees an altar. The altar has deeper meaning. It's a place for sacrifices. These brave men and women have made the ultimate sacrifice, and are therefore at the altar. This emphasizes their position and the white robes further emphasize their standing. My reading the Greek rendering of the text leads me to the conclusion that this is much the same as when we say, the voices of the unborn cry out to us, or the example we have in Genesis where the Lord says the blood of Abel cries to Him from the grave.

There is a sense of injustice having been done, like the parable of the owner of a wine vineyard who send his workers to check the work. They are all killed, so He sends His very son who is also killed.

This is the injustice, the fate of the victims and the restitution that has been a long time in coming. 

God is ready to tread the winepress of His wrath on an evil unrepentant murdering world. The 5th seal is both a testimony and a reminder as to why the next seals and trumpets will be coming on the earth.

 

Below is part of the quoted post above third paragraph from the end of the post.

The poster said the following in parenthesis. 

("John is having visions and he sees an altar.") 

This is a poor choice of words...John was not having visions they way all of us are having visions when we are trying to connect things and put them in sequence, visions of our mind...

*** Let's post the scriptures and see how it happens because something is not right in the commentary...

Revelation 6:1

*** John writes: I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” ² I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Your closest friendnt