Ask Me Anything About Christianity

[Dan Knight]

1 minute ago, Starise said:

From what I can ascertain here we seem to be in agreement with the whole Idea of Abraham being righteous through God, but I hesitate to commit fully because I don't understand all of it clearly.

The point that needed clarification was, it seemed you were making a comment about Jesus preaching to the patriarchs after His death and before His resurrection. 

I must not be the only one who thought this because @Jedi4Yahweh offered up a text commonly used to attempt to explain this.

I am refuting the claim that Jesus preached to patriarchs while he was in the tomb after His death based on the text given. There may be extra biblical texts which say the same things, but I chose not to look into any of that in order to make the claim based on only the bible.

I remember not too long ago one certain prosperity gospel televangelist dug herself a very deep hole by saying Jesus went to hell or something similar.

Most of the support for these ideas seem to be coming from the RCC and the idea of purgatory. This idea may have some association to extra biblical writings, but to be honest I think it was a money maker for them because they could charge the relatives of the dead to basically bail them out of there for a fee.

Define death per scripture.  

[Starise]

John 11

11 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7 and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

8 “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10 It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

 

Jesus says Lazarus is "asleep".

Jesus defines death of a believer as sleep in this text. 

[NCAP]

5 minutes ago, Dan Knight said:

Define death per scripture.  

Revelation 1:18, and...

"Moses My servant is dead..."  (Joshua 1:2)

[Dan Knight]

3 minutes ago, Starise said:

John 11

11 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7 and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

8 “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10 It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

 

Jesus says Lazarus is "asleep".

Jesus defines death of a believer as sleep in this text. 

Agreed. The ones thing I would add is that this 1st death us not reserved for believers only but all humans. "..and then the judgement.." that judgement is the penalty imposed upon us all at the garden of Eden. God referred to it as surely die, or to be un-existed. 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

@Starise

Genesis 6:5-8. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

** Gen. ch.7 v1. And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

I Peter 3:18-20 kjv 

18 For Christ also msuffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 

19 in which he went and qproclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

*****

●Peter is telling that Jesus after his death on the Cross as he was without his body of flesh he proved that he had died for the forgiveness of the sins of all people in the world. 

By going to the people who died in the flood to where they were kept...

Peter said that Jesus Christ went to them after his death when Jesus descended to the heart of the earth or as we know more precisely to the place of the dead...because Jesus was in the place of the dead from the time of his death to the time of his resurrection...

Peter did not say that he Jesus only preached the Gospel to those who died in the flood...

Peter points where Jesus Christ found them... in the place of the dead in the heart of the earth...because he died also for them and he also preached the Gospel to them. Because everyone must be Judged accordingly to the Gospel of Jesus Christ...according to his decision to have his sins forgiven in in Jesus Christ. 

Among them we can not find Adam and Eve and the other people of God who died before the flood...

Peter specified about those who died in the flood, because there was a belief that they were Judged by the Lord that time and their judgment was final...

Peter said no, the need to be offered repentance in the name of Jesus Christ to have the opportunity to hear the forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ and to be given their right to believe or not to believe and be judged accordingly. 

Jesus Christ peter said went to them while he was out of his body...

And he met the people if the flood who were out of their bodies, Peter said in the Spirit and Jesus preached the Gospel to them...and they show Jesus and heard Jesus speaking the Gospel to them and also Jesus can see them and he can hear them speak and they can hear one another as they speak to one another and they see one another...

Who is sleeping? Was Jesus sleeping after his death and God had to wake him up to tell him, get up is time to exit the Tomb...when Jesus said that he is going some place right after, imidiadly after the moment of his death in the heart of the earth he is spelling it out that he is  not in his dead body where ever they placed his dead body...for him was in the Tomb...

Edited October 3, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Starise]

9 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Genesis 6:5-8. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

** Gen. ch.7 v1. And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

I Peter 3:18-20 kjv 

18 For Christ also msuffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 

19 in which he went and qproclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

*****

●Peter is telling that Jesus after his death on the Cross as he was without his body of flesh he proved that he had died for the forgiveness of the sins of all people in the world. 

By going to the people who died in the flood to where they were kept...

Peter said that Jesus Christ went to them after his death when Jesus descended to the heart of the earth or as we know more precisely to the place of the dead...because Jesus was in the place of the dead from the time of his death to the time of his resurrection...

Peter did not say that he Jesus only preached the Gospel to those who died in the flood...

Peter points where Jesus Christ found them... in the place of the dead in the heart of the earth...because he died also for them and he also preached the Gospel to them. Because everyone must be Judged accordingly to the Gospel of Jesus Christ...according to his decision to have his sins forgiven in in Jesus Christ. 

Among them we can not find Adam and Eve and the other people of God who died before the flood...

Peter specified about those who died in the flood, because there was a belief that they were Judged by the Lord that time and their judgment was final...

Peter said no, the need to be offered repentance in the name of Jesus Christ to have the opportunity to hear the forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ and to be given their right to believe or not to believe and be judged accordingly. 

There are scant other supporting texts for this idea.

The REASON for the flood in the first place was rebellion and the unwillingness of men to repent. The ark took a long time to build. During that entire time Noah was mocked and ridiculed. 

Eventually God leveled the gavel after much patience.

Why would He seek that group of people to preach to when they had plenty of chances to repent before this?

If this idea is true, it opens the door for the idea people can be saved after final judgement if I understand you correctly.

Since you use Peter in your explanation, you seem to be using the text we went over that talks about spirits in prison who were disobedient. This points me away from the idea as presented for the reasons I already gave.

My explanation goes to Jude 1:6

Jude 1:6, NIV: And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

These were angels who caused such havoc on earth before the flood.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

15 minutes ago, Starise said:

There are scant other supporting texts for this idea.

The REASON for the flood in the first place was rebellion and the unwillingness of men to repent. The ark took a long time to build. During that entire time Noah was mocked and ridiculed. 

Eventually God leveled the gavel after much patience.

Why would He seek that group of people to preach to when they had plenty of chances to repent before this?

If this idea is true, it opens the door for the idea people can be saved after final judgement if I understand you correctly.

Since you use Peter in your explanation, you seem to be using the text we went over that talks about spirits in prison who were disobedient. This points me away from the idea as presented for the reasons I already gave.

My explanation goes to Jude 1:6

Jude 1:6, NIV: And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

These were angels who caused such havoc on earth before the flood.

 

You post about the peaple who died in the flood , a lot about them and without reference to scripture in Genesis...

In the narrative of the flood..in chapter six, v.5 to eight we have the words of the Lord and he is talking about people, the contemporaries of Noah and he has judged them to die in the flood...

Do you see anything about what he said to Noah to mention what you are saying about Angels, fallen Angels...

No there is nothing in the Lord's addressing Noah about Angels and neither about Peter's sayings in 1 Peter 18-19.

God and Peter only talked about humans, about the same group of people who died in the flood..who were not sleeping after their death..

Jesus body was still in the Tomb but about their bodies, no trace of them is possible to be found. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

@Starise

We need to talk about Abraham as this is one of your original questions and we can still talk about other  matters you brought up and one of them was the error of Jude...

But first let's talked about Jesus, about Jesus going to the place where Abraham and Issac and Jacob and the children of the promise of Abraham including David were after their death.

And how Jesus went to the place Abraham and everyone who was with him were after their death, waiting for God to fulfill his Promise made to Abraham. The time Jesus went to them, right after, imediatly after his  death on the Cross, right after the moment Jesus said teteleste..it's finished. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[DeighAnn]

On 10/1/2022 at 4:06 PM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Agreed...there is nothing conclusive that we go to heaven immediately after death.  Everything points to the resurrection. 

 

Going to heaven is resurrection

[NCAP]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Starise

We need to talk about Abraham as this is one of your original questions and we can still talk about other  matters you brought up and one of them was the error of Jude...

But first let's talked about Jesus, about Jesus going to the place where Abraham and Issac and Jacob and the children of the promise of Abraham including David were after their death.

And how Jesus went to the place Abraham and everyone who was with him were after their death, waiting for God to fulfill his Promise made to Abraham. The time Jesus went to them, right after, imediatly after his  death on the Cross, right after the moment Jesus said teteleste..it's finished. 

But Jesus did not talk about going to Abraham and Issaac and Jacob and David. He talked about going to the Father.