Witnessing to Jewish people

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

No, you have not. I gave you numerous chances to make your case and you instead just kept repeating your insistence that it means what you want it to mean. Asserting something repeatedly, no matter how forcibly does not an argument make.

I have made it clear to you I will never accept that Hashem has changed his covenant or altered the Torah by a single letter.

I Chronicles - Chapter 16:14 - 17

14 He is the Lord our G-d; throughout the earth are His judgments. 

15 Remember His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations.

16 [The covenant] which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac. 

17 And He set it up for Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.

 

Psalms - Chapter 105: 1 - 10

1 Give thanks to the Lord, call out in His name; make His deeds known among the peoples.

2 Sing to Him, play music to Him, speak of all His wonders. 

3 Boast of His holy name; may the heart of those who seek the Lord rejoice.

4 Search for the Lord and His might; seek His presence constantly.

5 Remember His wonders, which He performed, His miracles and the judgments of His mouth.

6 The seed of Abraham His servant, the children of Jacob, His chosen ones.

7 He is the Lord our G-d; throughout all the earth are His judgments.

8 He remembered His covenant forever, the word He had commanded to the thousandth generation,

9 Which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac,

10 And He set it up to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant,

 

Ezekiel 16:60 - 63

For so said the Lord G-d: I have done with you as you did, that you despised an oath to violate a covenant. 

60 But I shall remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I shall establish for you an everlasting covenant. 

61 And you will remember your ways, and you will be humiliated when you take your sisters, [joining] those greater than you to those smaller than you, and I shall give them to you for daughters, but not from your covenant.

62 And I shall establish My covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord.

63 In order that you remember and be ashamed, and you will no longer have an excuse by reason of your humiliation, when I forgive you for all that you have done," says the Lord G-d.

 

Malachi 3:6

For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.

 

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?

 

Isaiah 40:8

8 The grass shall dry out, the blossom shall wilt, but the word of our God shall last forever.

 

1 Kings 56

56 "Blessed (be) the Lord, Who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He spoke; there has not failed one word of all his good word, that He spoke through Moses His servant.

 

When you claim G-d has altered/changed or gone back on his word you are calling Hashem a liar, and I won't tolerate it. Even if I was convinced Jesus was the Messiah, I still would not accept G-d has gone back on or changed his covenant.

I don't care about your pet theology that you are clearly consumed with. Your cherry picked out of context verses that you are trying to brute force into meaning something they don't do not move me in any way. Make a better case or stop repeating yourself.

 

Yeshua has perfectly fulfilled the old covenant (Law of Moses).....forever.  His fulfilling of it is on behalf of all who receive Him.  Everyone else will be judged by the Law on the day of judgment and sadly will find themselves wanting.  The Law stands forever as a kind of beacon of righteousness, setting forth God's standard of righteousness in His word and it is written forever on the hearts of all who believe in Messiah Yeshua.  Yeshua comes to reveal the Father to our hearts....He comes to reconcile us to God.

Read Jeremiah 31:31-33 in your own bible where he prophesies of another covenant coming that will not be like the Mosaic covenant, but it will be inward righteousness of the Law written on our hearts, not just a matter of improving our outward behaviour.  Yeshua gives us a new heart...a soft heart of "flesh" that replaces our heart of stone....He changes us inwardly.  The Law is good but cannot give us a new heart...it doesn't change us inwardly.  Yeshua gives us His holy spirit, inwardly...by which we are sanctified, cleansed, and made holy inwardly.

Remember Job who had only heard of the Lord by the hearing of the ear.......that is how it is with most.  He lived and walked righteously but hadn't yet "seen" the Lord face to face, ie, the Lord hadn't yet been shown/revealed to him until he repented of being righteous in his own eyes.  (All our righteousness is as filthy rags...says God in His word....we need something more than just to change our outward behaviour.) Encourage you to read that book prayerfully, especially the end.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Heleadethme

[NCAP]

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; (Psalm 19:7)
 

[JohnR7]

14 hours ago, JohnD said:

Mmm okay... but they come from your same Bible.

Same Bible, but there are up to 100 levels and layers. Some people say you can sin all you want. Others say we are called to live free from sin. Holy, dedicated & sanctified. They are reading the same Bible. Even reading Paul - people walking away with totally different opinions on what Paul is teaching us. 

[JohnR7]

6 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I have made it clear to you I will never accept that Hashem has changed his covenant or altered the Torah by a single letter.

How much of the Torah is written down and how much of the Torah is in the reading translation and interpretation? It is amazing though that Science has a half life of 50 years. Where the Torah has remained consistent & true for thousands of years. 

[JohnD]

17 hours ago, Slibhin said:

When you claim G-d has altered/changed or gone back on his word you are calling Hashem a liar, and I won't tolerate it.

 

It's not going back on his word it is provided for in Torah:

Moshe B'Amram stated in Torah

Devarim 18:

15 A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you; you shall hearken to him. And I have shown you repeatedly Yirimyahu 31:30-33 wherein HaShem inspired the navi to declare a New Covenant apart from the Old Covenant. In it is also clearly stated  that the Old Covenant was broken by man. Had man not broken the covenant, G-d would have held up his end of the bargain forever.

טונָבִ֨יא מִקִּרְבְּךָ֤ מֵֽאַחֶ֨יךָ֙ כָּמֹ֔נִי יָקִ֥ים לְךָ֖ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ אֵלָ֖יו תִּשְׁמָעֽוּן:

[JohnD]

17 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I don't care about your pet theology that you are clearly consumed with. Your cherry picked out of context verses...

Ah! But is this cherry picking as you call it exactly what HaShem claimed his deep secrets would consist of?

Yeshayahu 28:

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge and to whom shall he explain the message? To those weaned from milk, removed from breasts?		טאֶת־מִי֙ יוֹרֶ֣ה דֵעָ֔ה וְאֶת־מִ֖י יָבִ֣ין שְׁמוּעָ֑ה גְּמוּלֵי֙ מֵֽחָלָ֔ב עַתִּיקֵ֖י מִשָּׁדָֽיִם:
10 For a precept for a precept, a precept for a precept, a line for a line, a line for a line, a little there, a little there.		יכִּ֣י צַ֚ו לָצָו֙ צַ֣ו לָצָ֔ו קַ֥ו לָקָ֖ו קַ֣ו לָקָ֑ו זְעֵ֥יר שָׁ֖ם זְעֵ֥יר שָֽׁם:
11 For with distorted speech and in another language, does he speak to this people.		יאכִּי בְּלַֽעֲגֵ֣י שָׂפָ֔ה וּבְלָשׁ֖וֹן אַחֶ֑רֶת יְדַבֵּ֖ר אֶל־הָעָ֥ם הַזֶּֽה:
12 For he said to them, "This is the rest; give rest to the weary, and this is the tranquility," but they would not listen.		יבאֲשֶׁ֣ר | אָמַ֣ר אֲלֵיהֶ֗ם זֹ֚את הַמְּנוּחָה֙ הָנִ֣יחוּ לֶֽעָיֵ֔ף וְזֹ֖את הַמַּרְגֵּעָ֑ה וְלֹ֥א אָב֖וּא שְׁמֽוֹעַ:
13 And the word of the Lord shall be for them a precept for a precept, a precept for a precept, a line for a line, a line for a line, a little there, a little there, in order that they go and stumble backwards and be broken, and be trapped and caught. Devarim 29: 28 The hidden things belong to the Lord, our God, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah. Mishlei 25: 2 The honor of God is to conceal a matter, whereas the honor of kings is to search out a matter.   בכְּבֹ֣ד אֱ֖לֹהִים הַסְתֵּ֣ר דָּבָ֑ר וּכְבֹ֥ד מְ֜לָכִ֗ים חֲקֹ֣ר דָּבָֽר:   כחהַנִּ֨סְתָּרֹ֔ת לַֽיהֹוָ֖ה אֱלֹהֵ֑ינוּ וְהַנִּגְלֹ֞ת ֹלָֹ֤נוֹּ ֹוֹּלְֹבָֹנֵֹ֨יֹנֹוּ֨ עַד־עוֹלָ֔ם לַֽעֲשׂ֕וֹת אֶת־כָּל־דִּבְרֵ֖י הַתּוֹרָ֥ה הַזֹּֽאת:		יגוְהָיָ֨ה לָהֶ֜ם דְּבַר־יְהֹוָ֗ה צַ֣ו לָצָ֞ו צַ֚ו לָצָו֙ קַ֚ו לָקָו֙ קַ֣ו לָקָ֔ו זְעֵ֥יר שָׁ֖ם זְעֵ֣יר שָׁ֑ם לְמַ֨עַן יֵֽלְכ֜וּ וְכָֽשְׁל֚וּ אָחוֹר֙ וְנִשְׁבָּ֔רוּ וְנֽוֹקְשׁ֖וּ וְנִלְכָּֽדוּ:

[JohnD]

You repeatedly accuse me of repeating myself.

If by my not backing down you perceive of me

repeating myself so be it.

 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

19 hours ago, Slibhin said:

No, you have not. I gave you numerous chances to make your case and you instead just kept repeating your insistence that it means what you want it to mean. Asserting something repeatedly, no matter how forcibly does not an argument make.

I have made it clear to you I will never accept that Hashem has changed his covenant or altered the Torah by a single letter.

I Chronicles - Chapter 16:14 - 17

14 He is the Lord our G-d; throughout the earth are His judgments. 

15 Remember His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations.

16 [The covenant] which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac. 

17 And He set it up for Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.

 

Psalms - Chapter 105: 1 - 10

1 Give thanks to the Lord, call out in His name; make His deeds known among the peoples.

2 Sing to Him, play music to Him, speak of all His wonders. 

3 Boast of His holy name; may the heart of those who seek the Lord rejoice.

4 Search for the Lord and His might; seek His presence constantly.

5 Remember His wonders, which He performed, His miracles and the judgments of His mouth.

6 The seed of Abraham His servant, the children of Jacob, His chosen ones.

7 He is the Lord our G-d; throughout all the earth are His judgments.

8 He remembered His covenant forever, the word He had commanded to the thousandth generation,

9 Which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac,

10 And He set it up to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant,

 

Ezekiel 16:60 - 63

For so said the Lord G-d: I have done with you as you did, that you despised an oath to violate a covenant. 

60 But I shall remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I shall establish for you an everlasting covenant. 

61 And you will remember your ways, and you will be humiliated when you take your sisters, [joining] those greater than you to those smaller than you, and I shall give them to you for daughters, but not from your covenant.

62 And I shall establish My covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord.

63 In order that you remember and be ashamed, and you will no longer have an excuse by reason of your humiliation, when I forgive you for all that you have done," says the Lord G-d.

 

Malachi 3:6

For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.

 

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?

 

Isaiah 40:8

8 The grass shall dry out, the blossom shall wilt, but the word of our God shall last forever.

 

1 Kings 56

56 "Blessed (be) the Lord, Who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He spoke; there has not failed one word of all his good word, that He spoke through Moses His servant.

 

When you claim G-d has altered/changed or gone back on his word you are calling Hashem a liar, and I won't tolerate it. Even if I was convinced Jesus was the Messiah, I still would not accept G-d has gone back on or changed his covenant.

I don't care about your pet theology that you are clearly consumed with. Your cherry picked out of context verses that you are trying to brute force into meaning something they don't do not move me in any way. Make a better case or stop repeating yourself.

 

Agreed!  God has not changed and his Torah is eternal.

But you are near, O LORD, and all your commandments are true. Long have I known from your testimonies that you have founded them forever. - Psa 119:151-152 

The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous laws endures forever. - Psa 119:160 

Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens. - Psa 119:89 

But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void. - Luk 16:17 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

36 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

Aaaaand of course this is cherry picked. When you read the entire narrative, which is what you're supposed to do, Hashem is addressing the Levites. I thought Jesus was from Judah? Is he a Levite now?

G-d is talking about some of the laws regarding the Levites and their priestly obligations and privileges'. He is also dictating what the consequences are for a false prophet. He also explains how he will set up a prophet to speak to them since many were afraid to look at G-d or hear his voice. How this applies to Jesus or the messiah in general I have no clue.

Your second post... I have no clue what you're getting at whatsoever.

Story goes Yeshua's mother Mary was a daughter of Aaron (Levite) and his father was from the tribe of Judah, but technically Joseph is not his biological father.  

Edited October 22, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[David1701]

On 10/19/2022 at 6:23 PM, Slibhin said:

I don't read the Christian bible so quoting any version of it is not meaningful.

I only quoted from the KJV translation of the Tanakh, which is based on the Masoretic Hebrew text.

Quote

1. Hashem said they would die if they are from the tree of life and that's what happened... they no longer would live forever. How this translates to original sin is beyond me. A sin means to violate G-d's laws. One cannot be born with intangible sin magically attached to them.

Actually, Hashem said that they would die, if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  They had been forbidden to eat from this tree, so eating from it was sin.  Having sinned, they were now corrupt, and passed that corruption on to their children.  It is that inward corruption that leads to sinful acts.

It is important to distinguish between sin (the inward principle of corruption) and sins (sinful acts).

Quote

2. The argument of "Oh did fulfill those things in a totally intangible spiritual way!" is totally inconsistent with Jewish Messianic prophecy. I already said I and Jewish people don't care if Christians have their own prophecies they think he fulfills. You are trying to convince Jewish people he's our Messiah and the requirements to be so have been consistent for 2000+ years.

They are not our prophecies; they are the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh, which we believe, and most of which have been fulfilled.

Quote

3. Nowhere in the Tanakh does it say all sins are the same and it clearly outlines the various degrees of sin. Nor are the consequences death unless the sin is particularly grave, like murder.

Yes, I know that.  The point is that, from God's perspective, any breach of the law means that you have not kept it, which, in turn, means that  you are unrighteous and deserve to go to outer darkness.  This is why no-one can be saved by trying to keep the law of Moses.

Quote

4. Show me where it says the Messiah would not do anything he is supposed to do, then die, come back and do everything the second go around. I'm not interested in just forcefully insisting he will.

He did everything he was supposed to do; but, how can anyone demonstrate that to you, when you won't accept the evidence?

Quote

5. I do not care what the Septuagint says. I do not know why a handful of Jews 2000 years ago chose that word but it is incorrect. Unless you speak fluent ancient Hebrew you do not have the knowledge or credentials to contest the overwhelming consensus. Every single expert and fluent Hebrew speaker says it means young woman. Do you think all the Hebrew speakers in the world are lying, or you somehow know it better than they do?

I know that the Hebrew word, in Is. 7:14, can mean"young woman of marriageable age"; but, it can also mean "virgin".

Quote

6. Hashem calls human sacrifice an abomination and forbids it. You've not addressed this issue. Hashem has also said repeatedly that one cannot assume the sins of another. The reasons you think he did it are irrelevant until you have addressed why G-d would violate his own edicts.

One sinful person should not bear the sins of another.  It would be unrighteous of the LORD to punish a sinner, for another's sins, and God is always righteous; however, a sinless and willing substitute, is another matter entirely.

The scapegoat (and the killed goat) show the principle of substitution.  The sins of the Israelites were, symbolically, transferred to the goats, by the laying on of hands.  One of the goats was then sacrificed - having its blood shed and dying, in the place of the lawbreakers; while the other was sent outside the camp, into the wilderness, symbolically taking the sins away from God's people.

Jesus fulfilled this type perfectly, sheddinjg his blood and dying, on the Cross, outside Jerusalem.

The sacrifice had to be spotless, just as Jesus was without sin.  He is the fulfilment of the Passover lamb, shedding his life-blood, so that everyone who believes in Him is protected from the judgment; just as the everyone with the blood of the lamb on the door lintels was protected from the destroying angel.

Quote

 

7. "No no there is a new covenant and the old one is deleted..." You will never convince a Jew that Hashem would break his word. Ever ever ever.

Ever.

 

The Old Covenant was not deleted; it was fulfilled and is now obsolete, which is why there are no more animal sacrifices and no literal temple.  Jesus kept the law perfectly and bore its punishments.

Quote

 

G-d does not change and always keeps his word. I, nor will any Jew, EVER accept that Hashem has reversed himself. That is a violation of the nature of G-d in every way. He actually explains what he means by "New covenant" in the very book you are quoting, which is one of renewal not replacement.

I remain unconvinced.

 

It's not a "renewal" of the Old Covenant, since it is declared to be "Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers...".  It is, thus, a different covenant, by definition.  In the Old Covenant, God did not inscribe his law upon their hearts, which he does, in the New Covenant.

In the Old Covenant, God did not forget their sins (because they had not been removed, only covered temporarily, by animal sacrifices); whereas, in the New Covenant, he does forget our sins, because they have been removed, not merely covered.

 

Would a Jewish translation of the Tanakh convince you?

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16028

Yirmiyahu (Jeremiah) 31:30-33 (Jewish translation of the Tanakh)

30 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.

31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.

32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.

33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Edited October 23, 2022 by David1701
punctuation