The Normal Christian Life

[Starise]

If we could normalize the Christian life what would that look like to you?

Do you see your life as getting progressively better based on what you see as spiritual advancements, or do you see it more akin to falling and getting up again?

In relating to Paul's words on his daily struggles he said that he did what he didn't want to do. For me often the Christian life is living with this reality. Then we might ask ourselves how a person could be such a dedicated believer yet STILL possess these non believer types of things we know to be bad things.

Or maybe you feel you have arrived as a believer and no longer have any struggles. I believe some of this changes with maturity in the Lord. In the very beginning I questioned my very salvation based on what I seen myself doing. I didn't "feel" saved and I felt the need to constantly repent, still do. 

For the person who tends to be a perfectionist and to "get things right" living this life that strives to be perfect and holy while still having sins we struggle with seems more like a failure than an advancement. The sins Paul refers to come from the flesh, so a clear definition of what he meant by that is in order. I don't live in anyone else's situation so I can't as easily see the inner workings as much as I can see my own. Maybe there are those who do feel they have arrived and are on some kind of a spiritual plateau?  To me, from the outside that looks like pride, yet maybe if we look at ourselves we can see work the LORD has done in us.

We are always in command of our flesh and it's our decision to follow it. Maybe more mature Christians have learned better ways to deal with their flesh, but it never really goes away does it? In the more mature believer I would guess it is pushed way to the background.

The world lays a huge expectation on us. To be far above the world  in terms of our actions and holiness. Yet far too often that image is tarnished or compromised by a fallen brother or sister. If we are pointing people to Jesus, we are to surely be different and we often take lots of flak for it.

If we have pride, what can we take pride in? There is absolutely nothing we possess in any way shape of form that we could have done without the Lord doing it allowing it, or blessing us with it. Whatever you have, whatever you can do, He made it possible. 

It is true we will one day be rewarded for what we do in addition to our salvation, so there ARE things we can do WITH what the Lord has given us to help further the kingdom. Are we using those things or are they laying idle somewhere?

The world is full of distractions and believers are not unaffected. I see some areas of interest as healthy diversions from sin or from wasted time. If our diversions are over taking our time with the Lord this is not good. The Lord wants all of you and me. Will our works be burned up or will they be productive for the kingdom? Are we letting sin reign in our mortal bodies ( I speak to myself here at times) The things in life that non believers seek. If we seek those things how are we any different?

Edited October 29, 2022 by Starise

[missmuffet]

8 hours ago, Starise said:

If we could normalize the Christian life what would that look like to you?

Do you see your life as getting progressively better based on what you see as spiritual advancements, or do you see it more akin to falling and getting up again?

In relating to Paul's words on his daily struggles he said that he did what he didn't want to do. For me often the Christian life is living with this reality. Then we might ask ourselves how a person could be such a dedicated believer yet STILL possess these non believer types of things we know to be bad things.

Or maybe you feel you have arrived as a believer and no longer have any struggles. I believe some of this changes with maturity in the Lord. In the very beginning I questioned my very salvation based on what I seen myself doing. I didn't "feel" saved and I felt the need to constantly repent, still do. 

For the person who tends to be a perfectionist and to "get things right" living this life that strives to be perfect and holy while still having sins we struggle with seems more like a failure than an advancement. The sins Paul refers to come from the flesh, so a clear definition of what he meant by that is in order. I don't live in anyone else's situation so I can't as easily see the inner workings as much as I can see my own. Maybe there are those who do feel they have arrived and are on some kind of a spiritual plateau?  To me, from the outside that looks like pride, yet maybe if we look at ourselves we can see work the LORD has done in us.

We are always in command of our flesh and it's our decision to follow it. Maybe more mature Christians have learned better ways to deal with their flesh, but it never really goes away does it? In the more mature believer I would guess it is pushed way to the background.

The world lays a huge expectation on us. To be far above the word itself in terms of our actions and holiness. Yet far too often that image is tarnished or compromised by a fallen brother or sister. If we are pointing people to Jesus, we are to surely be different and we often take lots of flak for it.

If we have pride, what can we take pride in? There is absolutely nothing we possess in any way shape of form that we could have done without the Lord doing it allowing it, or blessing us with it. Whatever you have, whatever you can do, He made it possible. 

It is true we will one day be rewarded for what we do in addition to our salvation, so there ARE things we can do WITH what the Lord has given us to help further the kingdom. Are we using those things or are they laying idle somewhere?

The world is full of distractions and believers are not unaffected. I see some areas of interest as healthy diversions from sin or from wasted time. If our diversions are over taking our time with the Lord this is not good. The Lord wants all of you and me. Will our works be burned up or will they be productive for the kingdom? Are we letting sin reign in our mortal bodies ( I speak to myself here at times) The things in life that non believers seek. If we seek those things how are we any different?

Putting God in control of my life 100%. Having a daily relationship with God which includes reading Scripture and praying. Being obedient to God and not intentionally sinning. 

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Starise said:

If we could normalize the Christian life what would that look like to you?

Do you see your life as getting progressively better based on what you see as spiritual advancements, or do you see it more akin to falling and getting up again?

In relating to Paul's words on his daily struggles he said that he did what he didn't want to do. For me often the Christian life is living with this reality. Then we might ask ourselves how a person could be such a dedicated believer yet STILL possess these non believer types of things we know to be bad things.

Or maybe you feel you have arrived as a believer and no longer have any struggles. I believe some of this changes with maturity in the Lord. In the very beginning I questioned my very salvation based on what I seen myself doing. I didn't "feel" saved and I felt the need to constantly repent, still do. 

For the person who tends to be a perfectionist and to "get things right" living this life that strives to be perfect and holy while still having sins we struggle with seems more like a failure than an advancement. The sins Paul refers to come from the flesh, so a clear definition of what he meant by that is in order. I don't live in anyone else's situation so I can't as easily see the inner workings as much as I can see my own. Maybe there are those who do feel they have arrived and are on some kind of a spiritual plateau?  To me, from the outside that looks like pride, yet maybe if we look at ourselves we can see work the LORD has done in us.

We are always in command of our flesh and it's our decision to follow it. Maybe more mature Christians have learned better ways to deal with their flesh, but it never really goes away does it? In the more mature believer I would guess it is pushed way to the background.

The world lays a huge expectation on us. To be far above the word itself in terms of our actions and holiness. Yet far too often that image is tarnished or compromised by a fallen brother or sister. If we are pointing people to Jesus, we are to surely be different and we often take lots of flak for it.

If we have pride, what can we take pride in? There is absolutely nothing we possess in any way shape of form that we could have done without the Lord doing it allowing it, or blessing us with it. Whatever you have, whatever you can do, He made it possible. 

It is true we will one day be rewarded for what we do in addition to our salvation, so there ARE things we can do WITH what the Lord has given us to help further the kingdom. Are we using those things or are they laying idle somewhere?

The world is full of distractions and believers are not unaffected. I see some areas of interest as healthy diversions from sin or from wasted time. If our diversions are over taking our time with the Lord this is not good. The Lord wants all of you and me. Will our works be burned up or will they be productive for the kingdom? Are we letting sin reign in our mortal bodies ( I speak to myself here at times) The things in life that non believers seek. If we seek those things how are we any different?

The classic battle is between the spirit of man and his flesh. In an unbeliever there is no contest, as you pointed out in Romans 7. Even the most zealous men and women under Law will fail. The believer's situation does not change with rebirth, but Christ, with the power of God and the whole package of human living, enters and dwells within the believer's human spirit (Jn.3:6).

The Law of sin and death that dwells in our flesh, like the Law of gravity, is ever present. It is relentless and drags the Christian down. But the Law of Christ's LIFE (Rom.8:1-2) is available, and when the Christian applies it, like the Laws of aerodynamics, the Christian can overcome the flesh. The minute he is distracted or loses concentration, he, like an aeroplane that flies too slowly, plummets into sins. Galatians 5:17 says that this is a war that never ends.

But, by having a good diet of the Word, an intimate relationship with Christ and being prepared to set the flesh aside, the Christian gets better and better at living by the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit starts to be displayed. This takes years. But there is a problem. The closer the believer gets to Christ in His walk, the closer he is to Christ's Light. And this divine light is also relentless. It shows up every little spot. So the mature Christian is in fact living better and better, but he/she does not have the sensation of it. He/she actually feels like a worse sinner. And it is here that FAITH is exercised. The believer MUST BELIEVE that God has approved Christ's Work of propitiation. Our sins are covered. Then the believer MUST BELIEVE that God is doing His work of transformation. WE have good says and bad days, but God is using every circumstance, especially the seeming negative ones, to teach us holiness.

Paul, absolutely given for Christ and ministry, wrote Philippians Chapter 3 just 3 to 4 years before he was martyred. In verses 9 to 14 we find a man not convinced that he has qualified. It reads;

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus

Verse 9 is his standing with God. Only the righteousness established by Christ, and applied or imputed by God, is good enough for AUDIENCE with God

Verse 10 shows that above all and intimate walk along the same road of suffering as Christ is the way to know and love Him. The "power of His resurrection" is that intrinsic power that Christ added to Himself to (i) obey God, and (ii) absorb unrighteous sufferings for God's purposes. When Christ comes to live in our spirits, He does not zap us with the power to create the universe. He takes His full human experience, mingles it with the divine nature, and infuses us with His human life right up to overcoming sin and death.

Verse 11 refers to the "first resurrection" of Revelation 20:4-6. All of us will be resurrected at Christ's COMING (1st Cor.15:23), but those who have EARNED the Kingdom (to be kings with Christ) must "ATTAIN" to this resurrection.

Verse 12 to 13 Paul is not sure that he has reached to standard set by God. But, IN FAITH he pushes on. We have been "apprehended" to (i) be Christ's Bride, (ii) be His co-kings on earth in His Kingdom, and (iii) be His testimony before the Nations (salt and light). The road is long. Men who run marathons might fall a few times. Paul says; "pick yourself up and press on. Keep the goal in sight".

Verse 14 is badly translated in the KJV. In other translations it has been corrected. It is NOT "the HIGH CALLING". It is "the CALLING ON HIGH", or, "the UPWARD CALL" and refers to the rapture of those who will be rewarded. Four times does scripture allude to this rapture. Here in Philippians 3, in Matthew 24:40-44, in Luke 21:35-36, and in Revelation 3:10. Notice that it must "BE ATTAINED" and is a "PRIZE".

Paul only knew he had made it shortly before his death in 2nd Timothy 4:6-8. I think that it will be the same for all of us. The sad part of this story is that the bulk - the majority of the Church will never have a walk like this one. the Lord predicts the Church to slide into Apostasy. The seven Churches of Revelation 2 and 3 are stark proof of this.

Edited October 28, 2022 by AdHoc
spelling

[Not of the World]

9 hours ago, Starise said:

If we could normalize the Christian life what would that look like to you?

Do you see your life as getting progressively better based on what you see as spiritual advancements, or do you see it more akin to falling and getting up again?

In relating to Paul's words on his daily struggles he said that he did what he didn't want to do. For me often the Christian life is living with this reality. Then we might ask ourselves how a person could be such a dedicated believer yet STILL possess these non believer types of things we know to be bad things.

Or maybe you feel you have arrived as a believer and no longer have any struggles. I believe some of this changes with maturity in the Lord. In the very beginning I questioned my very salvation based on what I seen myself doing. I didn't "feel" saved and I felt the need to constantly repent, still do. 

For the person who tends to be a perfectionist and to "get things right" living this life that strives to be perfect and holy while still having sins we struggle with seems more like a failure than an advancement. The sins Paul refers to come from the flesh, so a clear definition of what he meant by that is in order. I don't live in anyone else's situation so I can't as easily see the inner workings as much as I can see my own. Maybe there are those who do feel they have arrived and are on some kind of a spiritual plateau?  To me, from the outside that looks like pride, yet maybe if we look at ourselves we can see work the LORD has done in us.

We are always in command of our flesh and it's our decision to follow it. Maybe more mature Christians have learned better ways to deal with their flesh, but it never really goes away does it? In the more mature believer I would guess it is pushed way to the background.

The world lays a huge expectation on us. To be far above the word itself in terms of our actions and holiness. Yet far too often that image is tarnished or compromised by a fallen brother or sister. If we are pointing people to Jesus, we are to surely be different and we often take lots of flak for it.

If we have pride, what can we take pride in? There is absolutely nothing we possess in any way shape of form that we could have done without the Lord doing it allowing it, or blessing us with it. Whatever you have, whatever you can do, He made it possible. 

It is true we will one day be rewarded for what we do in addition to our salvation, so there ARE things we can do WITH what the Lord has given us to help further the kingdom. Are we using those things or are they laying idle somewhere?

The world is full of distractions and believers are not unaffected. I see some areas of interest as healthy diversions from sin or from wasted time. If our diversions are over taking our time with the Lord this is not good. The Lord wants all of you and me. Will our works be burned up or will they be productive for the kingdom? Are we letting sin reign in our mortal bodies ( I speak to myself here at times) The things in life that non believers seek. If we seek those things how are we any different?

Great post and questions!

[Not of the World]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

Putting God in control of my life 100%. Having a daily relationship with God which includes reading Scripture and praying. Being obedient to God and not intentionally sinning. 

That and treating others with the same love that we want to receive from others, right?

[Starise]

12 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The classic battle is between the spirit of man and his flesh. In an unbeliever there is no contest, as you pointed out in Romans 7. Even the most zealous men and women under Law will fail. The believer's situation does not change with rebirth, but Christ, with the power of God and the whole package of human living, enters and dwells within the believer's human spirit (Jn.3:6).

The Law of sin and death that dwells in our flesh, like the Law of gravity, is ever present. It is relentless and drags the Christian down. But the Law of Christ's LIFE (Rom.8:1-2) is available, and when the Christian applies it, like the Laws of aerodynamics, the Christian can overcome the flesh. The minute he is distracted or loses concentration, he, like an aeroplane that flies too slowly, plummets into sins. Galatians 5:17 says that this is a war that never ends.

But, by having a good diet of the Word, an intimate relationship with Christ and being prepared to set the flesh aside, the Christian gets better and better at living by the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit starts to be displayed. This takes years. But there is a problem. The closer the believer gets to Christ in His walk, the closer he is to Christ's Light. And this divine light is also relentless. It shows up every little spot. So the mature Christian is in fact living better and better, but he/she does not have the sensation of it. He/she actually feels like a worse sinner. And it is here that FAITH is exercised. The believer MUST BELIEVE that God has approved Christ's Work of propitiation. Our sins are covered. Then the believer MUST BELIEVE that God is doing His work of transformation. WE have good says and bad days, but God is using every circumstance, especially the seeming negative ones, to teach us holiness.

Paul, absolutely given for Christ and ministry, wrote Philippians Chapter 3 just 3 to 4 years before he was martyred. In verses 9 to 14 we find a man not convinced that he has qualified. It reads;

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus

Verse 9 is his standing with God. Only the righteousness established by Christ, and applied or imputed by God, is good enough for AUDIENCE with God

Verse 10 shows that above all and intimate walk along the same road of suffering as Christ is the way to know and love Him. The "power of His resurrection" is that intrinsic power that Christ added to Himself to (i) obey God, and (ii) absorb unrighteous sufferings for God's purposes. When Christ comes to live in our spirits, He does not zap us with the power to create the universe. He takes His full human experience, mingles it with the divine nature, and infuses us with His human life right up to overcoming sin and death.

Verse 11 refers to the "first resurrection" of Revelation 20:4-6. All of us will be resurrected at Christ's COMING (1st Cor.15:23), but those who have EARNED the Kingdom (to be kings with Christ) must "ATTAIN" to this resurrection.

Verse 12 to 13 Paul is not sure that he has reached to standard set by God. But, IN FAITH he pushes on. We have been "apprehended" to (i) be Christ's Bride, (ii) be His co-kings on earth in His Kingdom, and (iii) be His testimony before the Nations (salt and light). The road is long. Men who run marathons might fall a few times. Paul says; "pick yourself up and press on. Keep the goal in sight".

Verse 14 is badly translated in the KJV. In other translations it has been corrected. It is NOT "the HIGH CALLING". It is "the CALLING ON HIGH", or, "the UPWARD CALL" and refers to the rapture of those who will be rewarded. Four times does scripture allude to this rapture. Here in Philippians 3, in Matthew 24:40-44, in Luke 21:35-36, and in Revelation 3:10. Notice that it must "BE ATTAINED" and is a "PRIZE".

Paul only knew he had made it shortly before his death in 2nd Timothy 4:6-8. I think that it will be the same for all of us. The sad part of this story is that the bulk - the majority of the Church will never have a walk like this one. the Lord predicts the Church to slide into Apostasy. The seven Churches of Revelation 2 and 3 are stark proof of this.

Very masterful wording on this and much appreciated. I see the Christian life much like a series of stages.

The 1st stage we are new believers and think  suddenly in the magic of our conversion we will be good to go from now on. 2nd stage is when we begin to be attacked while also realizing we have that old flesh still. Maybe we thought becoming a new creature would mean we didn't have any more temptations. Boy were we wrong.

My 3rd stage was in trying to align myself with what I knew was right while failing miserable often. I could not attain that standard on my own.

Lastly I decided, like Paul, to press on and trust the Lord with the work, yet sometimes even now I am back in kindergarten so far as my advancement goes. I get back up and dust myself off praying for a better day tomorrow and asking forgiveness for yet another failure. I like to tell myself it doesn't happen very often but the failures probably happen far more often than I like to admit. This might be where some believers begin to question their faith. Like the parable of the seed, if our root is truly planted well we won't stop growing, however if we were never planted we will wither under the stress of it.

One might ask themselves, " If this Christian thing is real then it should be effective" I have said that very thing to myself. Why isn't this working better? Why is it taking so long to reach complete holiness? Never once have I entertained it wasn't real, that I didn't have a valid faith. I have only wondered why it was taking so long. I want to be free of all of the baggage now.

[missmuffet]

22 minutes ago, Not of the World said:

That and treating others with the same love that we want to receive from others, right?

That is true. Always treat others with kindness. Some people are toxic and very difficult to get along with. It may be possible to keep your distance from those people. You do not want to be a door mat. 

[Dennis1209]

Yes, I need no convincing; the Christian walk is a constant struggle with the flesh.

Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Paraphrasing Paul, the spirit is strong, but the flesh is weak. Paul suffered more in the flesh than probably all the other apostles combined.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Paul had a great advantage being personally taught the Gospel by the Lord Himself, as were the other apostles. This is not directly recorded in the Bible, but there is enough evidence to assume it.

By any biblical definition, did the apostles qualify as having faith? Seeing the miracles of Jesus, Him in His resurrected body, giving gifts of the tongue, moving mountains, raising the dead, etc. Everyone struggled with acceptance and faith until after the resurrection, even His disciples and siblings.

Correct me if I am wrong from memory, but only Jesus’s inner circle of disciples (Peter, James, and John) witnessed the miracles of Jesus raising the dead and His transfiguration. Perhaps someone can give their thoughts on why an inner circle of “three” and why the other disciples were excluded.

Another thing that the Bible is silent on is the mother of Jesus, Mary. During the three days after the crucifixion, we have an account of what the disciples were thinking and saying. What were Mary’s thoughts and feelings? Evidently, by this time, Joseph must have died. Has anyone ever wondered if Mary & Joseph told their other children that Jesus is the “Son of God” and the story? I suspect not because of the unbelief until after the resurrection. Can anyone imagine what it must have been like growing up with a half-brother who never did anything wrong, never punished for misbehavior? Was there any envy, spite, or jealousy?

Speculating is useless, but I always wondered what the thorn in Paul’s flesh was and with what he struggled. So severe, he prayed three times for the Lord to remove it. For Paul and us, the answer is that God’s Grace is sufficient to overcome it.

The devil wanted to sift Peter and the other disciples like wheat; Paul would be no exception.

I don’t know how often I’ve sinned, said, or done something I didn’t want to say or do, and it was after the fact that it hit me. Sometimes I still get the “feeling” I may not be saved, always missing the mark. Of course, I constantly strive to become more perfect (mature) in the Lord Jesus.

Constant failure and not achieving who I desire to become are sometimes depressing. Fortunately, Salvation is not a misleading “feeling,” otherwise I would really be questioning my status. I’d say I fall and get up again to pick one of your examples.

I gots me way off track and topic, sorry 😊

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

This might be where some believers begin to question their faith.

Bingo.

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Bingo.

What is the prize?