Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[seeking the lost]

16 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

That is certainly a good warning! So what verses are you referring to that are being added, or that support your view of one rapture?  There are three main rapture views (pre, mid & post-trib), and I don't think any of them are "adding to scripture." That is, very smart and educated people, who study these things in depth, arrive at each view for what they genuinely believe is supported in scripture.

This is the warning:  Revelation 22:18, 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I am not suggesting that verses are being added but the interpretation of many twists, changes, and perverts the text.  This activity in my opinion is violating the warning.

The primary texts that teach about the rapture set the parameters of interpretation.  The first is 1 cor. 15: 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The second is like unto it, Thess. 4:

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  These texts teach specifically there must be a resurrection of the dead in Christ prior to the rapture.

The book of Revelation clearly identifies two resurrections, the first at the end of the tribulation and the second at the end of the thousand years.  Does John make a mistake in recording the first resurrection?  Does anyone have the freedom to add a resurrection or resurrections to support their views?

The number of people who believe any particular doctrine or the degrees that they may have does not determine the truth.

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

 

The book of Revelation clearly identifies two resurrections, the first at the end of the tribulation and the second at the end of the thousand years.  Does John make a mistake in recording the first resurrection?  Does anyone have the freedom to add a resurrection or resurrections to support their views?

The number of people who believe any particular doctrine or the degrees that they may have does not determine the truth.

Regarding your last sentence - Absolutely!  I find many traditionally held things don't hold water upon close scrutiny (and, to be clear, I'm not referring to the core essentials of the faith).  Protestants inherited various ideas from Augustine & the RCC that I believe are off and we're still dealing with many of these ideas.

We all have our preconceived notions about what scripture is saying on various topics, and then we filter things through those preconceptions.  The only thing that can really cut through these mental constructs is His Spirit shinning light through His word, right?  So that's all we're wanting to do here - let His light shine on us.  Saying someone is adding or subtracting, based upon ones own preconceptions, seems a little too much . . .

So back to the subject - are raptures and the two resurrections the same things?  Resurrection implies a person is dead, but my understanding of rapture is that people alive are taken as they are.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Vine Abider

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Regarding your last sentence - Absolutely!  I find many traditionally held things don't hold water upon close scrutiny (and, to be clear, I'm not referring to the core essentials of the faith).  Protestants inherited various ideas from Augustine & the RCC that I believe are off and we're still dealing with many of these ideas.

We all have our preconceived notions about what scripture is saying on various topics, and then we filter things through those preconceptions.  The only thing that can really cut through these mental constructs is His Spirit shinning light through His word, right?  So that's all we're wanting to do here - let His light shine on us.  Saying someone is adding or subtracting, based upon ones own preconceptions, seems a little too much . . .

So back to the subject - are raptures and the two resurrections the same things?  Resurrection implies a person is dead, but my understanding of rapture is that people alive are taken as they are.

The first resurrection is a closed set, only those specified are raised.  That means there are many that are classified as the dead in Christ that are not included.  They are raised at the end of the thousand years.  This is the time when the books are opened and every man and every woman will be judged by the things they have done.

2 Timothy 4:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Those who fear God and tremble at His word should tremble at the warning not to add or take away from the writing of this book.  It is my opinion that many pay no attention to this warning.  I do not mean to be harsh but the warning is clear and yet there are those who teach 14 raptures.  That is clearly adding.

[Vine Abider]

15 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Those who fear God and tremble at His word should tremble at the warning not to add or take away from the writing of this book.  It is my opinion that many pay no attention to this warning.  I do not mean to be harsh but the warning is clear and yet there are those who teach 14 raptures.  That is clearly adding.

I would exhort you not to take anything away from the book either.

Here are four evidences in scripture regarding partial rapture:

"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial about to come upon the whole earth."  Rev 3:10

"Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36 - speaking of the Great Tribulation

"They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb." Rev 14:4b

“But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ Matthew 25:10-11

If you notice, each of these passages has a condition attached to them, meaning that some standard of behavior had to be met before these ones were rescued out. To the overcoming ones in Philadelphia they kept the word of His endurance; in the Luke passage they needed to be counted worthy to escape; in Rev 14 the firstfruits followed the Lamb closely (and they were the first fruits before the harvest); the wise virgins had oil in their vessels (the Spirit) and were let in - the foolish didn't have the oil and were therefore shut out.

All these passages are speaking to believers and the Lord gives a condition for them to be recued out/enter in.  This means some believers were not let in at that time and were taken later (not a loss of salvation by any means).

Edited November 8, 2022 by Vine Abider

[seeking the lost]

11 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I would exhort you not to take anything away from the book either.

Here are four evidences in scripture regarding partial rapture:

"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial about to come upon the whole earth."  Rev 3:10

"Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36 - speaking of the Great Tribulation

"They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb." Rev 14:4b

“But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ Matthew 25:10-11

If you notice, each of these passages has a condition attached to them, meaning that some standard of behavior had to be met before these ones were rescued out. To the overcoming ones in Philadelphia they kept the word of His endurance; in the Luke passage they needed to be counted worthy to escape; in Rev 14 the firstfruits followed the Lamb closely (and they were the first fruits before the harvest); the wise virgins had oil in their vessels (the Spirit) and were let in - the foolish didn't have the oil and were therefore shut out.

All these passages are speaking to believers and the Lord gives a condition for them to be recued out/enter in.  This means some believers were not let in at that time and were taken later (not a loss of salvation by any means).

There are many promises throughout the bible with the promise of deliverance.  Not one of them is a promise of being raptured.  You do remember that the tares are taken out first.  The wheat is not taken away from the tares like in a rapture.

The rapture is not to remove Christians from trouble but to take them to the new along with the dead in Christ.

The foolish virgins were left outside where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Vine Abider]

16 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

There are many promises throughout the bible with the promise of deliverance.  Not one of them is a promise of being raptured.  You do remember that the tares are taken out first.  The wheat is not taken away from the tares like in a rapture.

The rapture is not to remove Christians from trouble but to take them to the new along with the dead in Christ.

The foolish virgins were left outside where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Some commentators relate that the "outer darkness" the foolish virgins experience as just being shut out of the wedding feast, which does fit the parable well. Some are let in; some are shut out.  If you choose to believe that the wise one's aren't raptured, that's your prerogative.

After all, the rapture certainly isn't a core essential of the faith.  I think the bottom line with all of this is simply to watch and be ready, for "You do not know what hour your Lord comes" and it could be to any of us like "a thief in the night." (Matt 24:42 & Rev 16:15, Matt 24:43, 1 Thess 5:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10)

So what do you think about first fruits - do you see scriptural grounds for these ones to be taken as they ripen first . . . before the general harvest?

Edited November 9, 2022 by Vine Abider
Clarity

[FreeGrace]

On 10/29/2022 at 6:53 PM, Vine Abider said:

I've read a couple interesting books lately, putting forth the idea of more than just one rapture.  This thought seems to reconcile verses  appearing to show a post-trib rapture, while other verses  appear to show a pre-trib one.  One book I read, "Worthy to Escape," referred to these two raptures as "first fruit" and "harvest," going off the Old Testament practices depicted in a number of passages.  That is, some fruit ripened earlier, and was taken directly into the temple.  However, the harvest fruit required the full summer's heat to ripen. 

Has this viewpoint been discussed on here before and is there merit to it?

The Bible is clear about this discussion.  First, there is just one resurrection of the saved.  All of them will be resurrected/changed at the same time/event.  There will also be just one resurrection of the unsaved, which also will be at the same time.

Dan 12:2 -  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5- 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice  29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 -  and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Blue words refer to the saved and red words refer to the unsaved.  One resurrection each.

Since the Bible clearly teaches that there will be a resurrection at the Second Advent, we know that is when all believers will be resurrected/changed.

1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

2 Thess 2:1 -  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Regarding the concept of "rapture", most think of it as when Jesus comes before the Tribulation and gathers up those "who are alive and remain" (1 Thess 4:17) and will be caught up to the air/clouds and be changed (1 Cor 15:512-53) and then taken to heaven.  And that is the problem:  there are no verses that plainly tell us that Jesus takes any resurrected/changed believer to heaven.  And since the resurrection of the saved will be "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23), which is the second advent, there is no way there will be a trip to heaven after receiving a glorified body like Jesus'.  

Hope this helps.

 

 

[AdHoc]

On 11/7/2022 at 5:28 PM, seeking the lost said:

I am not suggesting that verses are being added but the interpretation of many twists, changes, and perverts the text.  This activity in my opinion is violating the warning.

I've followed your postings cursorily and contemplated your warning. I must admit that I too understood your warning as, that by proposing multiple raptures we were adding to the book of Revelation. Thank you for your clarification, but I find a new threat with the same consequences. The student of scripture is faced with a complex book. This Forum alone shows how many conflicting understandings there are. Are students who, for any reason, misconstrue the Words of Revelation, adding to the Book?

Which student do you know who has a correct understanding of all that is in the Book? If the answer is, "few", then a huge bulk of Christianity are guilty of perverting the text. It would then be safer not to study Revelation. But then ... this perverts Chapter 1 verse 3.

The proponents of a multiple rapture have good arguments. Why do so few address them.

[AdHoc]

On 11/9/2022 at 4:43 AM, seeking the lost said:

There are many promises throughout the bible with the promise of deliverance.  Not one of them is a promise of being raptured.  You do remember that the tares are taken out first.  The wheat is not taken away from the tares like in a rapture.

The rapture is not to remove Christians from trouble but to take them to the new along with the dead in Christ.

The foolish virgins were left outside where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

May I point out that the Tares are not harvested at the end of the age. The Tares speak of "counterfeit Christianity" - not the Nations. They are destroyed by the ten kings that gave the Beast his power so that the Beast may command universal worship (Rev.17).

In diverse scriptures it says that the Tribulation, or Wrath of God, covers the whole earth. In both Luke 21:35-36, where it says "escape" and Revelation 3:10, where it says "Kept FROM the hour", there can be no other meaning.

I agree that the Parable of the Virgins does not show a split rapture. Nor does 1st Thessalonians 4. But this is not an argument because we all know that a Parable is to show a principle and not the whole vista. The Parable of the Ten Virgins is to show (i) that besides a burning Lamp, we need extra oil in our Vessels - for the Kingdom, (ii) that this oil must be BOUGHT - that is, a price must be paid, and the wise will do it on earth in their lifetime. It does not show justification by faith, baptism and/or the Church.

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The Bible is clear about this discussion.  First, there is just one resurrection of the saved.  All of them will be resurrected/changed at the same time/event.  There will also be just one resurrection of the unsaved, which also will be at the same time.

Dan 12:2 -  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5- 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice  29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 -  and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Blue words refer to the saved and red words refer to the unsaved.  One resurrection each.

Since the Bible clearly teaches that there will be a resurrection at the Second Advent, we know that is when all believers will be resurrected/changed.

1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

2 Thess 2:1 -  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Regarding the concept of "rapture", most think of it as when Jesus comes before the Tribulation and gathers up those "who are alive and remain" (1 Thess 4:17) and will be caught up to the air/clouds and be changed (1 Cor 15:512-53) and then taken to heaven.  And that is the problem:  there are no verses that plainly tell us that Jesus takes any resurrected/changed believer to heaven.  And since the resurrection of the saved will be "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23), which is the second advent, there is no way there will be a trip to heaven after receiving a glorified body like Jesus'.  

Hope this helps.

 

 

I would like to start my comments on your post by saying that we agree in some points. I would just like to propose an alternate understanding.

First, a multiple rapture is already a fact of scripture. If we include Enoch, Elijah, our Lord Jesus, and the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, we have BESIDES those of 1st Thessalonians 4, an additional FOUR raptures - all at different times.

Now, Hebrews 9:27 unequivocally states that men die once. Some Christians reject that clear statement, but readily admit that there is not a single case of the man dying twice. If Hebrews 9:27 is true, then those for raptures become SEVEN, because;
-  Moses was slain but his body fought for and was present bodily on the mount of transfiguration. If is, and he cannot die twice, where is he today?
-  A Company of Old Testament saints were resurrected just "after" our Lord Jesus in Matthew 27:52. If they cannot die again, where are they today?
-  The two boys raised by Elijah and Elisha respectively, plus the man who touched Elisha's bones, plus the three persons our Lord Jesus raised, plus the two raised by Peter and Paul respectively, where are they to day?
-  And when our Lord Jesus sends His angels to gather His elect from the four winds OF HEAVEN, why heaven?

The only reasonable explanation is that the have been caught up to heaven where our Lord is. If they had remained on earth the would be well known seeing as all are 2,000 plus years old - which they are not. And if they died again, the Bible is a fable.

Why do I write all this? To show that there is s strong evidence that there have been MULTIPLE resurrections and MULTIPLE raptures already. they are a fact of scripture.

But there is more. Both Paul and John propose more than one resurrection. In Philippians 3:11 Paul talks of ATTAINING the "out-resurrection". This word is used only once in the whole Bible. It literally means "the resurrection out of the resurrection". And it must be "attained to". Similarly, John, in Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of a "first resurrection" which is for martyrs - that is, paid for with one's life. The Greek word can mean "first in time", or, it can mean "first in rank and importance". As all the above resurrections have gone before this one, it cannot be the "first in time". It must be the "first in importance". AND IT MUST BE BOUGHT DEARLY.

Since resurrection is guaranteed for all, these must be different resurrections, as they must be BOUGHT.

My last point is siple. the resurrection of the believers and Israel is "when He comes" (1st Cor.15:23). The "rest of the dead do not live again for 1,000 years". Revelation 20 shows that the two resurrections are a thousand years apart.