Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[The Light]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

There are uncounted multitudes of saved believers in heaven right now.  Where does Scripture indicate these came out of the Tribulation?  It doesn't.  Some scholars say they represent saints that have already died, over the 6K years of human history.

You don't get crowns until Jesus comes.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Sorry, I don't see Matt 24 and Rev 6 being the same thing.  In fact, there will be 3 earthquakes:  at the 6th seal, at the 7th trumpet and at the 7th bowl judgments.

If the 6th seal is when the King returns, then the seal judgments must be spread out over the whole tribulation, because the seal judgments begin the Tribulation with the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse.  And there will be 7 bowl judgments which will end the Tribulation after the 7th trumpet.

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. THEN the wrath of God, the trumpets and bowls begin with the opening of the 7th seal. 

The sun, moon and stars at the sixth seal and Matthew 24 are the same event. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the same event as the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same event as the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.

 

[George]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

But since there will be saints that were killed resurrected at the Second Advent, and there is ONLY ONE resurrection of the saved, and 1 Cor 15:23 says all believers will be resurrected when He comes, there is no way there will be a pretrib resurrection/rapture.

I think the proper way to view these events is looking at the fact there are simply 2 Trumpet blasts ... and this is why there is so much discrepancy.   Nobody talks about this fact!  You have a trumpet blast for the "paraousia" of the saints {Feast of Trumpets]  ... and you have a Jublilee blast [Yom Kippur or the FINAL TRUMPET] whereby everything is returned to their rightful owner.  

The question is the timing of the blasts ... and their relationship to the events described in Revelation.

The problem also in this discussion is the fact that terms are thrown around that are simply manmade and thus truth gets convoluted as its muddled with finite human understanding.  Pre-trib, Mid-Trib, Mid-Trib Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib etc all describe a human understanding of events.

Instead of trying to label a thought process, look at the entirety of Scripture and asks how does this fit into the narrative laid out.  If something doesn't fit, you should remove all those things that seem to contradict and then repackage it so that it all FITS!

As I said before, this is an interesting topic -- but the subject has a lot of latitude since it's not so clear cut in Scripture.  And when discussing it, one should hardly be dogmatic about their understanding.

Be blessed,

George

[George]

@The Light  Have you ever considered thinking of the 7s ... as the same event but looking at it in a telescopic way?

7th Seal ... 7th Trumpet ... 7th Vial ... actually pictures of the same event but in different lens and the conclusion of all of them end at the same time?

For example ... the 7th Trumpet blast 

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded ...

Rev 11:19  And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His covenant, and there occurred lightnings and voices, and thunders and an earthquake, and a great hail. 

 

Rev 16:17  And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done! 

Rev 16:18  And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake. 

Rev 16:19  And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath. 

Rev 16:20  And every island fled away, and mountains were not found. 

Rev 16:21  And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down out of the heaven on men. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague of it was exceedingly great. 

There is a mystery in the 7th ... for example ... the first 6 days marching around Jericho in Joshua was much different than the 7th day ... 

Just another thought ...

Be blessed,

George

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

You don't get crowns until Jesus comes.

Where does the Bible say that?

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. THEN the wrath of God, the trumpets and bowls begin with the opening of the 7th seal.

Where do you get that?  The 6th seal doesn't end the trib.  The 7th bowl does.

Rev 15:1 is quite clear about when the Tribulation ends.

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."  And between the seal judgments are the trumpet judgments.  

2 hours ago, The Light said:

The sun, moon and stars at the sixth seal and Matthew 24 are the same event. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the same event as the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same event as the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.

Not sure about that.  The 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all have severe earthquakes.  What scholar claims they are the same event?

[FreeGrace]

51 minutes ago, George said:

I think the proper way to view these events is looking at the fact there are simply 2 Trumpet blasts ... and this is why there is so much discrepancy.  Nobody talks about this fact!  You have a trumpet blast for the "paraousia" of the saints {Feast of Trumpets]  ... and you have a Jublilee blast [Yom Kippur or the FINAL TRUMPET] whereby everything is returned to their rightful owner.

[How do you link either trumpet with end times events?  We know at the "last trumpet" is when the King returns.]  For some reason, I couldn't separate your quote from my response.  

The question is the timing of the blasts ... and their relationship to the events described in Revelation.

I don't have to question the timing.  The basic timeline of end times is easy to understand.  The Tribulation begins with the 4  horsemen of chapter 6 and ends with the 7th bowl in chapter 15.  Since 1 Cor 15:23 is clear that there will a single resurrection for "those who belong to Him", which means ALL believers, and that will occur "when He comes", which means at the Second Advent, that's really all that is necessary to know the timeline.  The timing of any of the judgments isn't possible since John didn't give enough detail to determine that.

51 minutes ago, George said:

The problem also in this discussion is the fact that terms are thrown around that are simply manmade and thus truth gets convoluted as its muddled with finite human understanding.  Pre-trib, Mid-Trib, Mid-Trib Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib etc all describe a human understanding of events.

Instead of trying to label a thought process, look at the entirety of Scripture and asks how does this fit into the narrative laid out.  If something doesn't fit, you should remove all those things that seem to contradict and then repackage it so that it all FITS!

See above.  The timeline is easy to see.

51 minutes ago, George said:

As I said before, this is an interesting topic -- but the subject has a lot of latitude since it's not so clear cut in Scripture.  And when discussing it, one should hardly be dogmatic about their understanding.

Be blessed,

George

One can be"dogmatic" when there are verses that are plainly stated.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But since there will be saints that were killed resurrected at the Second Advent, and there is ONLY ONE resurrection of the saved, and 1 Cor 15:23 says all believers will be resurrected when He comes, there is no way there will be a pretrib resurrection/rapture.

What is your understanding of this?

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[The Light]

1 minute ago, George said:

@The Light  Have you ever considered thinking of the 7s ... as the same event but looking at it in a telescopic way?

7th Seal ... 7th Trumpet ... 7th Vial ... actually pictures of the same event but in different lens and the conclusion of all of them end at the same time?

 

The trumpets and vials happen in the same time frame, no doubt, but the 1st 6 seals are a completely separate event. Seal 7 is the trumpets and vials.  Revelation reads just like Genesis 7. We get three different views of Noah entering the ark and the flood coming, but there's just one flood. In Revelation we get two different views of the tribulation period and two different views of the wrath of God.

Try reading Revelation like this.

Revelation 4 and 5 - The Church raptured and in heaven. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God will turn his attention to His Chosen with the opening of the seals.

Revelation 6 - The first 4 seals, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, are the beginning sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24, and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus of Matthew 24. The tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened.

Revelation 7 - The 144,000 are sealed (they are actually sealed back in the 1st four seals, but you can't tell that at this point.) (Also, most people think the 144,000 are sealed to go through the wrath of God because of what is written regarding the 5th trumpet. However, the 144,000 are raptured to heaven before the trumpets begin. You figure this out from Revelation 14) The great multitude is then seen in heaven which includes the dead in Christ, the alive Church that was caught up, the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest, those killed in the tribulation (most will likely be of the 12 tribes) and the alive of the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman)

Revelation 8,9,10 and 11 The wrath of God. (Lasts 1 year)

Reveleation 12 A long period of time that starts back before Jesus was born that concludes with the woman in her place of protection and the dragon going after the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

Revelation 13 and 14 - This puts you back in the seals. The 144,000 are taken to heaven as first fruits. We can tell this happens before the fifth seal because the 5th seal is occurring in the great tribulation. Here is the Great Tribulation happening in Rev 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Notice that wrath begins in these verses just like wrath begins after the 6th seal.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 15 and 16 - This puts you back in the wrath of God. Note who is raptured when Jesus came in Rev 14.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

It is those of the 12 tribes that are raptured when Jesus comes in Revelation 14 which is the same coming of Jesus at the 6th seal which is the same coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. We can confirm that because they are singing the song of Moses.

In summary, you get two views of the tribulation period followed by the coming of Jesus for the second harvest. Revelation 6 and 7 and then Revelation 13 and 14. You also get two views of the wrath of God. Revelation 8,9,10 and 11 and then Revelation 15 and 16.

Try that out. You will find that it all comes together perfectly. We don't need to make anything up, all we have to do is read what it says.

 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Where do you get that?  The 6th seal doesn't end the trib.  The 7th bowl does.

I have posted this many, many times. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Do you see where it says IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. That occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun moon and stars.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Are you not grasping this? Tribulation and wrath are completely separate events. Believers are not appointed to wrath so there will not be any believers on earth during the wrath of God. That alone shoots down what you say about the second Advent.

1 thes 5

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 15:1 is quite clear about when the Tribulation ends.

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."  And between the seal judgments are the trumpet judgments.  

Not sure about that.  The 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all have severe earthquakes.  What scholar claims they are the same event?

Tribulation and wrath are completely different events. The tribulation is OVER before wrath begins. I have posted the scriptures many times showing this.