Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please please quote verses that support what you say.  Mere claims prove nothing.  The OT prophesied of ONLY 2 advents or comings.  So ALL mention of "the coming of the Lord" in the NT refer specifically to the Second Advent.

Thanks.

The Old Testament prophets were never shown much (if anything) about the Gentile church of today. God was keeping that a secret until He put blindness on the Jews and sent Paul to the Gentiles.

My point is, the interim advent (Jesus coming for His bride) was also a secret until revealed to Paul. Picture a parenthesis inserted into Jewish time. That is the church age. The moment after the pretrib rapture, God's focus will go right back to where it was before He sent Paul to the Gentiles. A second after the rapture it will be Day of the Lord time.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please show me where they ar said to be raptured.  Even scholars aren't sure who the 24 are.  So how can you be sure?

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: 

Those seating on thrones are probably the New and Old Testament saints, all in resurrection bodies.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please show me where they ar said to be raptured.  Even scholars aren't sure who the 24 are.  So how can you be sure?

20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: 

Do you see "24" anywhere here?

Who else could they be? Remember the parable where someone was given 10 cities to judge, and another was given 5? Remember where Paul said the saints will judge the world? John saw them doing just that.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

That's because there's no need to. What John was shown is a disclosure of Divine Destiny . . . symbolic, metaphorical, spiritual, and composite. Try to impose temporal values on eternal fixtures if you must, but don't expect spiritual growth from doing so. 

Blessings from Michael37 

There is a need 'to show it', IF IT IS BEING TAUGHT,

otherwise ANYONE COULD TEACH ANYTHING.




Since not a single word is WRITTEN about it anywhere and not a single book teaches it. The CHURCH has never been referred to as 'elders' or 24 elders, yet THE RAPTURE THEORY does.  How did that become acceptable?  It is nothing more than assumption standing on assumption based on a conclusion of what 'kept from the Hour' means 

Since the 'beginning' of the pre trib theory is SUPPOSED to begin with the 1 Thess 4, which in reality has those who have DIED AND RISEN returning with Christ NOT A PRE TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH and that is the time the the alive and remaining are changed, 

(where do people come AFTER the alive and remaining have been changed? or has alive and remain gotten a new definition and made it possible for there to be people who REMAIN after that somehow?)

being at the last trump, (the time when Christ is COMING/returning to earth to rule and reign),

WHEN is this 'rapture' supposed to have taken/take place?

AGAIN, with the alive and remaining being changed, and gathered to the Lord there is NO ONE LEFT for Satan to do anything with let alone deceive.  Maybe if you could produce a world of people AFTER THAT it might be possible but short of that it just doesn't work.  

Maybe the CHURCH should instead do what it is told - and pick up its' cross and follow HIM and endure to the end LIKE IT IS WRITTEN.  Maybe it should teach what is written.  


Maybe the CHURCH should teach being more like David, a man after Gods heart and less like the spies who had no faith that God would see them through.

Maybe it becomes less believable because even after all this time no one who believes it can put forth A FOUNDATION for it.  Any explanation on why GOD, who says He never changes, would suddenly change everything.  Or why GOD would take away people with 50, 60 or more years of knowledge and leave those with NO TIME, no wisdom, no knowledge to read and try and figure out what is what BEFORE being deceived by someone who is so good that the time had to be shortened or even the elect would be deceived, WHEN THE WHOLE GOAL OF GOD IS THAT ALL COME TO REPENTANCE and MAKE IT THE TIME when billions of people have disappeared rendering Faith null and void.

Talk about the all-time WORST PLAN EVER for achieving ones goals.  

That is paramount to playing a football game on which you have pinned all your hopes and dreams and then in the final quarter, removing all but 2 players.  




 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Israel WASN'T A NATION anymore when Christ walked the earth so it is impossible 'the nation refused'.  Also ONLY the house of JUDAH returned out of captivity to build the temple, the 10 other tribes had been scattered and sifted to the world 200 years before that,   so it WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO REFUSE THE LORD as they had become the 'scattered sheep'.  AND there is no GENTILE church as a gentile becomes 'seed of Abraham' when becoming a Christian, not the other way around.  

This is why going to 'THE SCHOOLMASTER' is so important.  It is impossible to understand the end if you have no idea about what is taking place ALREADY when the New Covenant comes into existence.  

I stand corrected: let me rephrase: I should not have used "nation." Perhaps "Sanhedrin" would have been a better word. Or just the Jewish leadership. 

There is a "gentile" church for most of today's church is Gentile. In the physical realm, race does not change when one is born again.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

If Paul can use the term Gentile, so can I. 

Do you deny that God is waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles?

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

If you don't want to discuss this any further, please just say so and I will move on, as this does not help with understanding. 

I have come to find this usually means it is time for me to end the discussion before I upset and it ends anyhow, just in a negative way.

[All I said was "yes it does".  I'd have to dig back into the pages to find the context for my comment, but I was either agreeing or disagreeing with you.  I'm happy to discuss and answer your questions, although some of them are difficult to figure out what you are asking.]
A big problem with that is they would NOT have followed Him to be where HE IS, and HE TOLD US where He was going, HE GOES TO BE WITH THE FATHER.  He told us we know the way, but they would INSTEAD have waited until He returned.  I guess no need to 'know the way' after all.

[I don't see any problem.  Jesus didn't tell them to "follow Him" in that context.  So I don't know what your comment is about.  In fact, He t0ld them that they ALREADY knew the way.  

Here is the context for your comment in John 14-

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” 

6 Jesus answered,  “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 

9 Jesus answered:  “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.]
That doesn't work with WHAT IS WRITTEN.  We don't get to assume and speculate.  What is written is what is truth.  Believers FOLLOW HIM to heaven.

[Huh?  Where do you read that believers "follow Him to heaven"?  Sounds like a pre-trib idea, which you've said you don't believe.  Your comments are confusing.]

  We sow a natural body and are raised a spiritual body.  We are raised in glory, we are raised in power and when we return with Him we sit upon thrones, we don't come back to the earth to receive glory

[No, we don't "sow" anything.  Our physical bodies are sown, but not by us.  I think you are confused about all of this.  Being 'raised a spiritual body' IS IS IS the resurrection at the Second Advent.  At that point, with a spiritual body, we are already in the clouds in the air, are are NOT "returning with him".  Everyone is already there.]   
But I think I understand.  It's the pre trib confusion that sits upon all the words of God.  Not a word written.  Goes against what we are told to do and what to expect.  Has Jesus disobeying God.  Doesn't us allow us to pick up our cross and follow Him.

[I agree that the pre-trib teaching is unbiblical, but I don't see how it has all the things you accuse it of.  And, of course, no one should teach what isn't in the Bible.]

WHO is left upon the earth?  Who is alive and remaining?  Those who join the Lord and the armies COMING TO earth to rule and reign.

[At the Second Advent, ALL believers will be given glorified bodies, with which to reign or serve Christ in His MK.  To your question about "who is left upon the earth?" that would be all the surviving unbelievers from the Tribulation.  The people that Jesus Christ will reign over, with a "rod of iron".  Remember, ALL believers will receive glorified bodies at the Second Advent.  That prepares them for reigning with or serving the King, over a planet of mortal unbelievers.]
15And out of HIS mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

[As I said.]

Try to work this out.  Everyone from kings on down to slaves are having their BODIES eaten by birds.  The remnant are slain.  They are ALL DEAD, meaning
THERE is not a SINGLE BAD GUY LEFT ALIVE 'in the flesh' upon the face of the earth.  Remember the trial comes upon the WHOLE INHABITED WORLD.

[No, not everyone is dead.  Read the whole context, which is about the armies that are trying to destroy Israel.  Rev 19-

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 

18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” 

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 

20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 

21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

v.19 tells us who are killed: the kings and their armies.  This does not include all the inhabitants of the earth.  If all humans are killed, there would be no one to rule over "with a rod of iron".  Do glorified believers, minus their sin natures, need to be ruled over "with a rod of iron".  I don't think so.]

WHO does Christ RULE OVER with a rod of Iron? 

[The surviving mortal unbelievers.]  
APOLOGIES FOR GOING OFF TOPIC...

Accepted.  :)

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

One is on its way to BECOMING a carcass, the other HAS BECOME a carcass.  

Lazarus was ON HIS WAY but like Jesus said, 'a sickness not unto death', EVEN THOUGH everyone believed he was dead, it was all for the glory of God. 

So being resuscitated even having been pronounced dead, is not 'resurrected out from the dead. 

When THIS body has QUICKENED 'the bare grain', and that bare grain been GIVEN A BODY AS GOD SEES FIT, you can bet that is raised/resurrected in glory and though it may be incorruptible, we are only immortal by eating of the tree of life and being judged worthy of that is where our 'immortality' comes from, I believe.   

In the Greek, the word is literally "to stand up".  And it can be translated "raised from the dead" or "resurrected".  Just know all the raising from the dead in the OT and in the gospels is NOT a resurrection with a glorified body.  I think that's where confusion begins.

[FreeGrace]

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
"Rapture" comes from the Latin word, "rapturo." It only means a catching up. If you deny the catching up, then you are denying scripture.

To be clear, the VAST majority of evangelicals think of getting an immortal body and then being taken to heaven by Jesus just before the Tribulation.  Of course the believers who are still alive and remain on earth when Jesus comes at the Second Advent will be "caught up" (1 Thess 4:17) or "gathered together" (2 Thess 2:1) to meet the Lord in the air, with ALL the dead saints who came with Him from heaven.

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Some people imagine, after we are caught up, that we make a u-turn and come right back down. Others think we will then be escorted to heaven. I am in the heaven camp.

[What verse or verses very clearly have Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven?  That is the only key to a pre-trib rapture theory.] 

WE get the catching up from Paul. He wrote that the rapture or catching up would come just before wrath. I personally believe the rapture will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord and the start of God's wrath.

Actually, Paul taught that believers would be "gathered together" at the "coming of the Lord", which is the Second Advent.  2 Thess 2:1.  In 1 Thess 4;17, Paul wrote that those who are alive and remain will be cauught up to meet THEM THEM (Jesus and all dead saints from heaven).  And Paul never said anything about Jesus taking any glorified and resurrected person to heaven.

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

In John 14, we read that Jesus went to build homes for His bride - the common thing a groom at His time would do. Then it is clearly written that He would come and get His bride - another very common thing a groom would do in His day.

Then He said, that "where I am, there will you be also."  Where am Jesus all during the tribulation or 70th week? He remains in heaven. That means the Bride is there in heaven with Him. No one can prove from John 14 that Jesus will NOT take us to heaven, although many imagine He will not.

There has been a lot of abusing of John 14:1-3.  Jesus hadn't died when He said all that.  So His going to heaven has already been completed and no doubt He already has prepared a place for His disciples, for that was who He was talking to.  So His discourse was about security.  After the thing with Judas, it seems obvious that all of them thought they were on "shaky ground", so Jesus had to affirm their security, which he did by what He said.  And there is nothing about Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is my guess - and it is an educated guess, having read Hebrews 9:28, which tells us that Jesus will appear to those who are LOOKING for Him, that those who do not believe in the rapture will be left behind. There is a flip side to this verse that hints strongly that if someone is NOT looking for His coming, He will NOT appear to them.

This verse speaks of His "second" coming, which coming fits Paul's writing in first Thessalonians.  This is NOT His coming to Armageddon, for the timing is wrong and the purpose is wrong. I believe His coming to Armageddon will be His THIRD coming. Just saying...

Every mention of "coming" related to Jesus IS IS IS about the Second Advent, at the end of the Tribulation.  The OT prophesied about ONLY 2 advents (comings) of the Messiah.  When the NT was written, the FIRST advent had already occurred.  So the ONLY ONE LEFT is the Second Advent.  And that is what is meant by "the coming of the Lord".

As to your propsed "third coming" of Jesus, can you prove this from Scripture?  By that I mean clear and plain verses.

Edited December 18, 2022 by FreeGrace

[FreeGrace]

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The Old Testament prophets were never shown much (if anything) about the Gentile church of today. God was keeping that a secret until He put blindness on the Jews and sent Paul to the Gentiles.

None of this matters for understanding end times.  Both 1 and 2 Thess and Revelation lay it all out, as regarding the timeline.

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

My point is, the interim advent (Jesus coming for His bride) was also a secret until revealed to Paul. Picture a parenthesis inserted into Jewish time. That is the church age. The moment after the pretrib rapture, God's focus will go right back to where it was before He sent Paul to the Gentiles. A second after the rapture it will be Day of the Lord time.

In fact, by the time Jesus comes back, the VAST majority of the Bride will already be in heaven.  So He doesn't "come for His Bride".  In fact, THEY will "come with Him", which Rev 19 very plainly lays out.

[FreeGrace]

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: 

Those seating on thrones are probably the New and Old Testament saints, all in resurrection bodies.

I asked how you know the 24 were resurrected and taken to heaven?  You didn't provide any evidence to your claim.