Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

42 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: 

Do you see "24" anywhere here?

Who else could they be? Remember the parable where someone was given 10 cities to judge, and another was given 5? Remember where Paul said the saints will judge the world? John saw them doing just that.

Well, it would have been nice to include context for your comments.  Many people go to Rev 4 and the 24 "elders" who are sitting on thrones.  But since you now provide context (Rev 20), thanks.  These are all believers who will be reigning with Christ in the MK, which is why He comes back to earth.  Yes, they have been resurrected, just as the tribulation martyrs have been.

[Michael37]

20 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

There is a need 'to show it', IF IT IS BEING TAUGHT,

otherwise ANYONE COULD TEACH ANYTHING.




Since not a single word is WRITTEN about it anywhere and not a single book teaches it. The CHURCH has never been referred to as 'elders' or 24 elders, yet THE RAPTURE THEORY does.  How did that become acceptable?  It is nothing more than assumption standing on assumption based on a conclusion of what 'kept from the Hour' means 

Since the 'beginning' of the pre trib theory is SUPPOSED to begin with the 1 Thess 4, which in reality has those who have DIED AND RISEN returning with Christ NOT A PRE TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH and that is the time the the alive and remaining are changed, 

(where do people come AFTER the alive and remaining have been changed? or has alive and remain gotten a new definition and made it possible for there to be people who REMAIN after that somehow?)

As I've exhorted on before, the chapters in Revelation on the 24 elders and the Lamb taking the Seven Sealed Scroll have nothing to do with the harpatzo (aka rapture).

Some narratives employ a method of  retro-sequencing after an initial scene fixed ahead of the story they then flash back to.

In Revelation after the beholding of the Lamb taking the scroll we have the unfolding of previous sequences that lead to the Perfect Completion of Divinely Decreed Destiny, hence the series of sevens in place.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Why not what?

Consider it.

 

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

He said the DEAD are resurrected and the living are CHANGED.  But, both get glorified immortal bodies.

Where is it written 'the dead who are raised at Christs return receive 'glorified' bodies'? WHAT chapter and verse?

because the 'dead' that are resurrected aren't even judged for 1000 years, till the  GWTJ and only then do the dead find out if their names are found in the book of life or if they will be proceeding to the LOF.  

 

I am anxious to see these verses you speak of because I believe they would be in direct conflict with
This now I say brothers, that flesh and blood {the} kingdom of God to inherit not is able, nor the decay the immortality does inherit.  

that decay being corruption, destruction, rottenness, decomposition. Decomposition is the process through which the body goes back to dust in the earth so those who are raised up out from the dead, from the dust of the earth, the grave, sheol, can not be raised up immortal, ONLY MORTAL.

Jesus body was NOT to see any corruption, and since we are 'resurrected' IN LIKE MANNER, how could we?
 

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

David died, his flesh was buried and his tomb is still with around.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Another verse that tells us His kingdom will be a kingdom on earth  

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

so for US to be raised up IMMORTAL we can't see 'corruption' either.  And anyone who has been in the grave for more than 3 days for sure has seen corruption.  




There is a resurrection of the dead and a resurrection OUT from the dead.  One takes place when the body dies and the saved soul that never dies (never goes to hell)  is raised up in his glorified spiritual body, just like it is written.  

One thing that would bother me is NOT being able to give Scripture for what I believe and having to give excuse as to what is written REALLY MEANS. 

I CAN READ what I believe, and what I believe is written, no excuses, no 'time period added, no returns to 'receive a glorified body', that aren't written of any where and so I know what I believe is GODS truth, not my own. 

It is raised a spiritual body, not it is raised a spirit that returns for a body out from the dust at the resurrection of the dead

It is raised in glory, not it is returned to receive a glorified body


 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The "last generation" aren't raptured.  There is no such thing.  The living believers when Jesus comes back will be gathered or caught up to the clouds in the air to meet THEM (dead believers from heaven and Jesus) in the air, and the "dead in Christ" will receive their resurrected body FIRST and then the living believers will be "changed in a twinkle of the eye (1 Cor 15:52).

I completely understand that,  


but when talking with a pre tribber, we have to use what they believe to get the point across,  If we don't, we are just wasting time.  

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I stand corrected: let me rephrase: I should not have used "nation." Perhaps "Sanhedrin" would have been a better word. Or just the Jewish leadership. 

There is a "gentile" church for most of today's church is Gentile. In the physical realm, race does not change when one is born again.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

If Paul can use the term Gentile, so can I. 

Do you deny that God is waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles?

 

No, I do not.  I just don't think you are taking into consideration what was taking place on the earth the day Jesus turned 29.  Just because Jesus came and a new covenant was brought forth DOESN'T CHANGE a single promise God made previously.  DOESN'T CHANGE a single event that took place.  DIDN'T STOP the continued advance of those things set in motion hundreds of years before.  

ANYONE who doesn't KNOW those things just starts a new story, and that isn't what is going on in the written world.  

The fullness of the gentiles doesn't mean the 'church age' (another made up thing) 'ends' or the church is raptured.  It means something completely different than that.  AND we can read about it in Romans 
 

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Remember the evaluation of the CHURCH given by Christ?  Did it seem to be 'continuing' in His goodness?  
 

23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


THE BLINDNESS COMES OFF and the branches are grafted back in and ALL ARE MADE ONE. 

If the church is raptured off to heaven then NONE OF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE.  

Everyone who becomes a Christian becomes of Abrahams and so of Jacob.

So

Maybe the CHURCH should be going back to the schoolmaster instead of looking to fly away...that's all I am saying

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Where is it written 'the dead who are raised at Christs return receive 'glorified' bodies'? WHAT chapter and verse?

[I don't understand your question.  haven't you read 1 Cor 15 yet, along with 1 Thess 4?  They explain it clearly.]

because the 'dead' that are resurrected aren't even judged for 1000 years, till the  GWTJ and only then do the dead find out if their names are found in the book of life or if they will be proceeding to the LOF. 

[There are 2 resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  I think you are confused with Rev 20:5.  1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4 deal with the resurrection (glorified bodies) of the saved at the Second Advent.  That is called the FIRST resurrection in Rev 20:5.  The "rest of the dead" refer to the resurrection of the unsaved, which will occur 1,000 years later, meaning AFTER the MK.] 

I am anxious to see these verses you speak of because I believe they would be in direct conflict with
This now I say brothers, that flesh and blood {the} kingdom of God to inherit not is able, nor the decay the immortality does inherit.  

that decay being corruption, destruction, rottenness, decomposition. Decomposition is the process through which the body goes back to dust in the earth so those who are raised up out from the dead, from the dust of the earth, the grave, sheol, can not be raised up immortal, ONLY MORTAL.

[I wish you would include chapter and verse when you refer to Scripture, so I can see what you are referring to.  Usually, the context will answer your questions.]
Jesus body was NOT to see any corruption, and since we are 'resurrected' IN LIKE MANNER, how could we?

[Of course resurrected glorified immortal believers won't.  Why are you even asking such a question?]

Another verse that tells us His kingdom will be a kingdom on earth  

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
so for US to be raised up IMMORTAL we can't see 'corruption' either.  And anyone who has been in the grave for more than 3 days for sure has seen corruption.  

[When God resurrects someone, it doesn't matter how long they have been in the grave.  Don't you know that?]

There is a resurrection of the dead and a resurrection OUT from the dead.  One takes place when the body dies and the saved soul that never dies (never goes to hell)  is raised up in his glorified spiritual body, just like it is written. 

[Sorry, but I don't know what you are talking about.  There are only 2 resurrections total; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  If you have clear verses that explain the difference between "of the dead" and "out from the dead", please share.] 

One thing that would bother me is NOT being able to give Scripture for what I believe and having to give excuse as to what is written REALLY MEANS. 

Exactly!  So please share the verses when you explain things.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I completely understand that,  


but when talking with a pre tribber, we have to use what they believe to get the point across,  If we don't, we are just wasting time.  

I don't agree.  Since their whole doctrine is unbiblical, we can't use their false doctrine to get the truth across.  We just have to ask them for verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven.  They don't have any.  Until they get that point, there is no progression.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I see all believers at the same event (Second Advent) in 1 Cor 15:23.

 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The phrase "when He comes" is a clear reference to the Second Advent, because the OT prophesies of just two advents of Christ, and obviously the first advent had already occcurred when Paul wrote.  And the phrase "those who belong to Him" obviously refers to all saved people, since all saved people belong to Him.

It's not obvious at all and it would contradict other scripture as is shown below.

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Do you mean two resurrections for believers?  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all speak of a singular resurrection for the saved and a singular resurrection for the unsaved.

Dan 12 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"

John 5  28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Acts 24 15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

This is one resurrection, not two. In Dan 12 there are two distinct groups of the 'many'.

In John 5 there are two destinies for the 'all that are in the graves'.

In Acts 24 the just and the unjust are again two distinct groups in '...A resurrection of the dead."

All three passage tell us this particular resurrection is of all the dead and some are going to be justified and find life and some will be unjustified and find death. 

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So, how do you justify 2 resurrections for the saved from Scripture?

Thanks.

I don't justify it, scripture does. The Rev 7 and Rev 20 passages do not describe all believers from all time but only the ones who 'came out from within GT' and the ones 'who did not take the mark, did not worship the beast or the image and died for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God'.

Neither of the Revelation passages describes all the dead being raised like Dan 12, John 5 and Acts 24. Neither do the Rev 7 and 20 passages speak to 'some to eternal life and some to eternal death' or, 'just or unjust' or 'everlasting shame or everlasting life'.

The opposite is true.

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

And...

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

So there is a resurrection at the time Jesus arrives for those enduring GT and one resurrection 1000 years later where there is a judgement between the just and the unjust. Rev 20 clearly describes two resurrections when the passage says 'This is the first resurrection'; there must be another not a protos, or primary or important, resurrection. To wit:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: " This is not the protos resurrection; and it's not a resurrection of only the unjust where all are cast into the lake of fire as it's said;

"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.... 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

This is a judgement based on deeds. And it's 'who was not found' only that are cast into the lake of fire, this means some were found written in the book of life. The words here do not signify none are found but 'whoever was not found'. 

This mirrors perfectly with Dan 12, John 5 and Acts 24 when it's said there is a single general resurrection of all the dead in the graves and they are divided into two groups; some to life, others to death.

So there is a resurrection of the overcomers from out of GT that did not succumb to the power and authority of the beast, and one 1000 years later where all the rest of the dead are resurrected to be judged based on what is written in the books. 

The gathering at the arrival of Jesus is not a general resurrection of all the dead from all time. Nothing written suggests this and in fact the opposite is true. 

And no, it's not a pretrib rapture as that does not exist except in the mind of the fearful.

 

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's not obvious at all and it would contradict other scripture as is shown below.

Then, please explain fully what was said in 1 Cor 15:23.  That verse is only about the resurrection of the saved. 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Dan 12 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"

John 5  28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Acts 24 15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

This is one resurrection, not two. In Dan 12 there are two distinct groups of the 'many'.

In John 5 there are two destinies for the 'all that are in the graves'.

In Acts 24 the just and the unjust are again two distinct groups in '...A resurrection of the dead."

Well, thanks for supporting my position.  All 3 of these groups is about the saved and the unsaved; the 2 groups you note.  None of the verses are about just the saved.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't justify it, scripture does. The Rev 7 and Rev 20 passages do not describe all believers from all time but only the ones who 'came out from within GT' and the ones 'who did not take the mark, did not worship the beast or the image and died for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God'.

No verse or passage is "required" to mention ALL details about any event, as it seems you are demanding.  Rev 20 is specifically described as the FIRST resurrection, which is for martyrs, which are believers, and saved.  The SECOND resurrection, which comees 1,000 years later would obviously refer to the unsaved.  Go back and read the 3 verses you quoted.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Neither of the Revelation passages describes all the dead being raised like Dan 12, John 5 and Acts 24. Neither do the Rev 7 and 20 passages speak to 'some to eternal life and some to eternal death' or, 'just or unjust' or 'everlasting shame or everlasting life'.

The opposite is true.

Sorry, but the 3 passages that you posted PROVE that there will be a single resurrection for the saved and a single resurrection for the unsaved.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

So there is a resurrection at the time Jesus arrives for those enduring GT and one resurrection 1000 years later where there is a judgement between the just and the unjust. Rev 20 clearly describes two resurrections when the passage says 'This is the first resurrection'; there must be another not a protos, or primary or important, resurrection.

You'd have to ignore 1 Cor 15:23 to hold that view.  The 3 verses you quoted show that saved have a resurrection and the unsaved have a resurrection.  Both are single events, and they are 1,000 years apart, per Rev 20:5.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

To wit:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: " This is not the protos resurrection; and it's not a resurrection of only the unjust where all are cast into the lake of fire as it's said;

"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.... 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

This is a judgement based on deeds. And it's 'who was not found' only that are cast into the lake of fire, this means some were found written in the book of life. The words here do not signify none are found but 'whoever was not found'. 

The GWT judgment is for unbelievers, all of them.  And, yes, it is a judgment based on works.  However, since v.15 tells us clearly WHY they are cast into the LOF their works or deeds play NO PART in why they are cast into the LOF.  They never received the free gift of eternal life.  That's why they are cast into the LOF.  There's no other place for them to go.  One will either live with God forever or live apart from God forever.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

This mirrors perfectly with Dan 12, John 5 and Acts 24 when it's said there is a single general resurrection of all the dead in the graves and they are divided into two groups; some to life, others to death.

The mistake here is thinking these 3 verses are talking about a single resurrection for both the saved and unsaved at the same time.  But Rev 20:5 refutes that notion, since there are 2 resurrections and they are 1,000 years apart.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

The gathering at the arrival of Jesus is not a general resurrection of all the dead from all time. Nothing written suggests this and in fact the opposite is true. 

And no, it's not a pretrib rapture as that does not exist except in the mind of the fearful.

 

I never said anything about a "general resurrection of all the dead".  There was no need to say that.  When Jesus comes back, at the Second Advent, ALL believers from all time will be resurrected.  And 1,000 years later, after the MK, all unbelievers will be resurrected to appear at the GWT and cast into the LOF.

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

[There are 2 resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Is this a resurrection?

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.