Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Or a better question, what scriptures do you imagine makes this unscriptural?

first couple off the top of the head

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,

My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.


 

Heb 13

1Let brotherly love continue. 2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

6So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Luke 9

22Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

23And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


John 17
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

What would the EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT PRAYER JESUS PRAYED BE?

Take them out of the world to keep them from evil.... AKA
THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE THEORY

Who would ever start such a thought?  Certainly an ADVERSARY of the truth.  What was the name of the woman who started it? 

Eze 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

 

2 Thess 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Either what is written is TRUTH or it is not.  

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


GOD doesn't change

James 1:17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Making it impossible that 1/2 the souls had to endure tribulation and the other 1/2 didn't, simply because they were born in the wrong generation.



WHO do you suppose GAVE him THIS CROWN?

2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

Eph 6 10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

WHICH WOULD INCLUDE the man made TRIbulation Saints


23And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

In Paul's second letter, He wrote that the (a significant one all should recognize) departing must come first. First before what? Before the Revealing. Why? He explains that is verses 6 -8. There is a power holding back the revealing until the proper time. When that time comes, the power holding back will be taken out of the way. 

Are you saying the apostasy is the pre trib rapture?

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What part of the pre-trib rapture does not make sense to you?
Would YOU allow YOUR children to to suffer under YOUR wrath? Few parents would.

Do you think Gods wrath has never come upon His children before?

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am flying away with the rest of the Bride. If you wish to remain behind, I believe God will honor that.

What part of the pre-trib rapture does not make sense to you?
Would YOU allow YOUR children to to suffer under YOUR wrath? Few parents would.

BUT the rest of the 'bride' (which I'll skip for now) would be the so called by man 'trib saints' and the two witnesses.  Are you saying the two witnesses will suffer the wrath of God?

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I believe Hebrews 9:28 tells us, He will appear the second time [only] to those who are looking for His coming or expecting Him. I have often wondered how those that are looking for the Antichrist first or expecting to see the Antichrist first, will fit this verse - which side they will be on. 

You didn't answer my question though.  btw, why did you insert [only] in the verse, when it doesn't occur in the verse?  How do you justify your own personal touch in translating?  I am sure all believers understand that He will come back.  Some, entirely without any Scriptural evidence, think it will be before the Tribulation, and others, know He's coming back as King of kings and Lord of lords, from the clear evidence in Scripture.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The OT never saw Paul being sent to the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. It is strictly a NT event, that was a secret not revealed to OT prophets. 

What does this have to do with anything.  The OT prophesied about TWO advents or comings of the Lord.  All the writers of the NT knew that Jesus' first advent had already come, so EVERY mention of "the coming of the Lord" is technical for the Second Advent.  Every time.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore, there is very little, if anything, in the gospels or even in Revelation that fits the Gentile church.

[For unknown reasons, the double click method for separating paragraphs doesn't work consistently, so I will use brackets and red for my responses.  I am shocked at your statement.  The ENTIRE NT is for ALL believer, Gentiles included.  btw, you don't need to ever say "Gentile church", as if there are different kinds of churches when referring to saved people.  You should know that.

In short, the rapture of the church of today, mostly a Gentile church,  written only in Paul's letters, will come just before Wrath or the Day of His wrath [the 6th seal]. God will begin the Day of His wrath before he begins with 70th week.  This is put the entire 70th week inside the Day of the Lord.  Jesus coming to Armageddon will come after their 70th week.  

Please prove your claim about this "rapture" with clear evidence from Scripture.  Such as showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.  I already know there aren't any such verses.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think the truth is, His coming for His bride, the coming Paul wrote of, will be pre-trib. The other comings, Matthew 24 and Revelation 19, will be His THIRD coming. Therefore I must disagree with you here. 

Impossible.  How would anyone reading what the human authors wrote know about any such "third" coming?  The OT prophesied about only 2.  Your view is on very thin ice.  More of a presumption.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There will be multiple resurrections, even for the righteous. The dead in Christ will be the next (After Jesus was the firstfruits) then the OT saints will be after the Week so about seven years later, "on the last day" of the 70th week, so at the 7th vial. 

Please read Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  Jesus, Paul and who ever wrote the last chapter of Daniel have refuted your belief.  There will be one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  ALL 3 verses say that.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I believe the martyrs and the Two Witnesses will be raised with the OT saints. The bible is clear on these two!  Don't be lead astray by the KJV use of "first" as in first resurrection. "Chief" or "most honorable" would be a better translation. There is no time limitation to that resurrection for the righteous. Jesus was the firstfruits of this resurrection, the Dead in Christ will be second, and finally all the rest will be third -  but all will be under that resurrection for the righteous. 

Actually, the 2W are not given glorified bodies when they are raised to life.  They are back in physical bodies, just like when they went up the first time.  Since you think otherwise, what verse makes this clear?

In fact, the 3 verses about the 2 resurrections refute your ideas of multiple resurrections.  Also, 1 Cor 15:23 couldn't be more clear.  Jesus was the first (firstfruits) to receive a glorified body at His resurrection.  THEN, "when He comes" we read who else will be resurrected, "those who belong to Christ".  This isn't rocket science.  It's very clear and simple.  That phrase includes every saved person from Adam on.  So ALL believers will in that one resurrection.  I have given you the evidence.  

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I believe John 14 will suffice for that. Paul did not give a direction after the saints meet Jesus in the air - but I believe John 14 answers that. Jesus said, "where I am, there will you be also."  

Well, at the Second Advent, Jesus comes down to earth.  And ALL believers will be resurrected at that time.  And all believers will be with Him forever.  John 14:1-4 says NOTHING about Jesus taking any glorified believers to heaven.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Where "am" Jesus all through the 70th week? He will remain in heaven as proven by Revelation 19.

It makes GOOD sense that God would remove His people before His wrath comes.
It makes GOOD sense that God would, therefore, tell us when Wrath will begin.
It makes GOOD sense that God would take His bride to a place of safely.
It makes GOOD sense that we  will be part of those armies from heaven that will return with Him.

All believers who die go to heaven.  So the "armies in heaven" are comprised of all the believers who have died up to the time of the Second Advent.  No mystery there.

Rev 19 proves that the believers in heaven are preparing for the wedding supper (v.7, 9) and immediately after that context we see them accompanying Christ back to earth.  What makes GOOD sense is that at the resurrection of believers, all in their new glorified bodies, the wedding supper commences, then followed by Jesus organizing the MK where all believers, in glorified bodies, will reign with, or serve the King.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

BUT the rest of the 'bride' (which I'll skip for now) would be the so called by man 'trib saints' and the two witnesses.  Are you saying the two witnesses will suffer the wrath of God?

They will be on earth during the time of God's wrath, but I doubt they will suffer. 

 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Again, the problem is that the Bible ONLY speaks of a single resurrection, and NOTHING about multiple resurrections, much less multiple harvests.  That's all just speculation.

Where are we told there is 'a single resurrection'?    I know A RESURRECTION is spoken of THERE but what in the wording precludes any others?

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have never been a post-trib believer, so I cannot know if, while having strong faith that I will see the Antichrist first, I would still be Looking for His coming....
TOMORROW!
I hope all believers are looking for and expecting Him TONIGHT.

The Bible says plainly that He comes back at the Second Advent and gives glorified resurrected bodies to ALL believers1

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I also wanted to comment on Rev. 4: In my opinion, if we got 100 5th graders and had them read 4:1, they will ALL say that was John being caught up to heaven.

How this every was thought to be the rapture of the church mystifys me.

As for the elders, my best guess is, they are the elders of the OT that was raised when Jesus rose. It is only a wild guess. It is BEFORE the rapture, which will come just before the 6th seal start of Wrath.

Right.  Even scholars don't agree on who the 24 elders are, or represent.  I read in Scripture that Christ returns at the Second Advent for the resurrection of believers.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Which coming? He is coming back at least TWICE more: one, as you said, is laid out clearly in Paul's epistles. This coming is just before wrath, for the church, and to begin the Day of the Lord. 

His third coming will be over seven years later, to Armageddon.

John did not see his next coming, but saw the effects of it: the just raptured church in heaven, as that great crowd, too large to number.

Since the OT mentions only TWO advents (comings) of the Lord, how can there be more since NO ONE would have understood what was being referred to.

Since you think there are more, what verses convince you of that?  Again, since the OT only prophesied about two, how would first century readers know the writer meant more than the Second Advent.  In fact, the OT would NEVER have known about a pre-trib rapture anyway.  So, the the OT writers, the Second Advent IS when the King returns to earth.