Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[iamlamad]

58 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You didn't answer my question though.  btw, why did you insert [only] in the verse, when it doesn't occur in the verse?  How do you justify your own personal touch in translating?  I am sure all believers understand that He will come back.  Some, entirely without any Scriptural evidence, think it will be before the Tribulation,

Why did you write "entirely without any Scriptural evidence?" I think you should have written that you have not found any evidence. There is evidence, but it seems you have not found it.

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice the bolded text: He is going to appear unto them that look for Him. I think the writer left the flip side to our imagination: that He WON'T appear to those who are NOT looking for Him. 

No, the writer did not write an only, but I believe it fits.

Questions:
1. Do you believe Revelation has a timeline?
2. If so, where do you place "the trib" on that timeline?

[DeighAnn]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

They will be on earth during the time of God's wrath, but I doubt they will suffer. 

 

Not that I agree, as I dont think Gods wrath comes until the bowls, but my question is why would they make it through ok but not the church?  Haven't we been given power over all our enemies?  I guess we would have to have faith in that

[iamlamad]

57 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Since the OT mentions only TWO advents (comings) of the Lord, how can there be more since NO ONE would have understood what was being referred to.

Since you think there are more, what verses convince you of that?  Again, since the OT only prophesied about two, how would first century readers know the writer meant more than the Second Advent.  In fact, the OT would NEVER have known about a pre-trib rapture anyway.  So, the the OT writers, the Second Advent IS when the King returns to earth.  

Why would God reveal something to OT prophets that He wanted to be a secret only revealed in the NT? He would not. As I said, putting blindness on the Jews and sending a Jew to the Gentiles was to remain a mystery in the OLD.

1 thes. 4, for His next coming, then Matthew 24 and Rev. 19 for His third coming. The first text  shows a coming before the trib, while the other two show us a coming after the trib. They cannot be the same coming.

Quote

 So, the the OT writers, the Second Advent IS when the King returns to earth.  

"second" in relation to a coming is used only once, Heb. 9:28. No other place numbers His coming.

I agree, His coming at the end of time to resurrect the saints, defeat the enemies and set up His Kingdom is all the OT saints knew.

[iamlamad]

59 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Not that I agree, as I dont think Gods wrath comes until the bowls, but my question is why would they make it through ok but not the church?  Haven't we been given power over all our enemies?  I guess we would have to have faith in that

There is no verse anywhere that gives tribulation saints power over their enemies. On the other hand, God has said they will be overcome.

The church won't be here to be overcome. The Two witnesses will be SENT by God.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Right.  Even scholars don't agree on who the 24 elders are, or represent.  I read in Scripture that Christ returns at the Second Advent for the resurrection of believers.

If by "second Advent" you mean His coming to Armageddon, you did not read that in 1 Thes. 4.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The vast majority of evangelicals read the same scriptures you and I read. I am a FIRM believer that when Jesus comes (it could be tonight) for His Bride, He will escort us to the homes he has prepared. Why do you find this hard to believe? Or a better question, what scriptures do you imagine makes this unscriptural? 

John 14:1-4 was spoken directly to His 11 disciples, affirming that they WILL be in heaven.  Recall Judas.  When Jesus told them at the last supper that one of them would betray Him, they ALL were concerned if it was them, as Scripture shows.  So Jesus had to assure them that He WOULD be preparing a place for THEM.  This passage has nothing to do with a rapture of end time believers before the tribulation.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, gathered at Christ's coming...but WHICH coming? His Matthew 24 or Rev. 19 coming? That is impossible. Paul told us the rapture would come before wrath and before the Day of the Lord. In Revelation that would be before the 6th seal.  This is confirmed when John saw the church in heaven and wrote it in Rev. 7. 

There is only one more.  The Second Advent, exactly what the OT prophesied about.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In Paul's second letter, He wrote that the (a significant one all should recognize) departing must come first. First before what? Before the Revealing. Why? He explains that is verses 6 -8. There is a power holding back the revealing until the proper time. When that time comes, the power holding back will be taken out of the way. 

What else in this passage could be something taken out of the way? Of course, the departing of the church. It is the Holy Spirit working through the church that is holding back the revealing.

This is why, in verse 3b, Paul said the man of sin IS revealed. 

2 Thess 2:1-3 clearly says that the man of sin MUST be revealed BEFORE the "coming of the Lord our being gathered".  That proves that this "coming" is post trib. 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Wait! How COULD he be revealed in 3b, unless in 3a the one holding back in taken out of the way? What possible word in verse 3a could be something taken out of he way? Only one word, translation several times a the departing. What is departing? We need only to look back to Paul's theme: the gathering, where the church will be taken out of the way, so that the man of sin will be revealed in his time. 

Do you understand who the "restrainer" is?  I was taught as a youth that the restrainer was the Holy Spirit, who leaves earth with the raptured believers.  I guess no one ever thought to think that through.  The Holy Spirit's ministry is to convict of sin.  Why could He leave then?  Doesn't make sense.  And the Holy Spirit is God and therefore, omnipresent, He CAN'T leave.

The restrainer is moral government that keeps evil at bay.  Just like the USA used to be at keeping the evil of communism, fascism, marxism, radical islamism, etc at bay.

However, the restrainer has already been removed, as is obvious as one observes current events.  

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore I find great consistency in Paul's letters. But his first and second letter show us a pre-trib rapture.

Absolutely not.  The "coming of the Lord" is the Second Advent.  You cannot find any evidence in Scripture for a "3rd coming".  It's just not there.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The Bible says plainly that He comes back at the Second Advent and gives glorified resurrected bodies to ALL believers1

If you are referring to John chapter 6, He was talking to Jews about THEIR resurrection. The Gentile church of today was still a mystery of the future.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Because I am tired of addressing everything you ask, while you don't address anything I do.  

Good grief!  Anyone reading this thread can see for themselves how MUCH I have addressed your very long posts.  So maybe you just don't recognize what I have posted IS addressing your claims.

Maybe there's just nothing more to discuss.

[FreeGrace]

24 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Where are we told there is 'a single resurrection'?    I know A RESURRECTION is spoken of THERE but what in the wording precludes any others?

How many times are you going to ask this question, since I have repeatedly answered it WITH EVIDENCE??  1 Cor 15:23.  Have you read it yet?

The verse is so obvious, your last question is totally unnecessary.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

John 14:1-4 was spoken directly to His 11 disciples, affirming that they WILL be in heaven.  Recall Judas.  When Jesus told them at the last supper that one of them would betray Him, they ALL were concerned if it was them, as Scripture shows.  So Jesus had to assure them that He WOULD be preparing a place for THEM.  This passage has nothing to do with a rapture of end time believers before the tribulation.

I will agree, IN CONTEXT He is talking to His disciples, who formed the early Jewish church. But do you imagine Jesus has NOT built homes for the Gentile church believers? I see no reason why John 14 cannot be applied to us as the Gentile and end time church. I think the truth is, they will be raptured with us, and will be taken to their prepared homes with us.