Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why did you write "entirely without any Scriptural evidence?" I think you should have written that you have not found any evidence. There is evidence, but it seems you have not found it.

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice the bolded text: He is going to appear unto them that look for Him. I think the writer left the flip side to our imagination: that He WON'T appear to those who are NOT looking for Him. 

No, the writer did not write an only, but I believe it fits.

Questions:
1. Do you believe Revelation has a timeline?
2. If so, where do you place "the trib" on that timeline?

I don't deal with "imaginations" as you admit to doing.  I deal with verses that are clear and plain in their language.

1. There is one resurrection for the saved and lost:  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  All references to resurrection are singular.

2. 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear about the resurrection of the saved:  Jesus is first to receive a resurrection body (Acts 26:23), and then, when He comes (Second Advent) those who belong to Him (all believers).  

As to your questions, it isn't clear whether the 3 sets of God wrath are solely sequential, or there is overlapping.  The 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all have severe earthquakes.  So, it is 3 separate earthquakes, or just 1, described 3 times?

I don't know, and scholars don't agree with each other on that.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

There is only one more.  The Second Advent, exactly what the OT prophesied about.

I think you have not counted correctly. You are trying to MORPH two comings into one, and in so doing trying to WARP time so that a point in time AFTER the tribualtion meets a point in time BEFORE the tribulation. Sorry, friend, but it won't work.

1 Thes. 4 speaks of a coming BEFORE WRATH and before the DAY.
Revelation shows us the DAY begins before the WEEK. Since the rapture is before the DAY, then it is also before the WEEK. That is why millions of believers are pre-trib. They found it in scripture.
You see, in counting 6 ALWAYS comes before 7.
The 6th seal will most certainly be opened before the 7th seal.
The Day will start before the WEEK will start.

[iamlamad]

59 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't deal with "imaginations" as you admit to doing.  I deal with verses that are clear and plain in their language.

1. There is one resurrection for the saved and lost:  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  All references to resurrection are singular.

2. 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear about the resurrection of the saved:  Jesus is first to receive a resurrection body (Acts 26:23), and then, when He comes (Second Advent) those who belong to Him (all believers).  

As to your questions, it isn't clear whether the 3 sets of God wrath are solely sequential, or there is overlapping.  The 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all have severe earthquakes.  So, it is 3 separate earthquakes, or just 1, described 3 times?

I don't know, and scholars don't agree with each other on that.

Sorry, but Paul's resurrection of the Dead in Christ will come before wrath. Period and end of story.

[FreeGrace]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why would God reveal something to OT prophets that He wanted to be a secret only revealed in the NT? He would not. As I said, putting blindness on the Jews and sending a Jew to the Gentiles was to remain a mystery in the OLD. 

Rather, IF God was hiding something from the OT writers, there would be clear evidence in the NT about a "3rd advent" so readers wouldn't be confused about which one was being referenced.  The other problem with a pretrib rapture is that there is only 1 resurrection of believers, and Rev 20:4 proves that it will occur when the King of kinds comes back to earth.  That is very clear.

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

1 thes. 4, for His next coming, then Matthew 24 and Rev. 19 for His third coming. The first text  shows a coming before the trib, while the other two show us a coming after the trib. They cannot be the same coming.

"second" in relation to a coming is used only once, Heb. 9:28. No other place numbers His coming.

I agree, His coming at the end of time to resurrect the saints, defeat the enemies and set up His Kingdom is all the OT saints knew.

I think you are just jumping around.  1 Thess 4, Matt 24 and Rev 19 are all the same thing, but focusing on different aspects of the same thing;  the return of the King.

[FreeGrace]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I will agree, IN CONTEXT He is talking to His disciples, who formed the early Jewish church. But do you imagine Jesus has NOT built homes for the Gentile church believers? I see no reason why John 14 cannot be applied to us as the Gentile and end time church. I think the truth is, they will be raptured with us, and will be taken to their prepared homes with us.

That isn't the point of John 14:1-4.  Jesus was specifically assuring the 11 that they WILL BE IN HEAVEN.  I'm sure they were all shook up over Judas.  They had no idea.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't deal with "imaginations" as you admit to doing.  I deal with verses that are clear and plain in their language.

1. There is one resurrection for the saved and lost:  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  All references to resurrection are singular.

2. 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear about the resurrection of the saved:  Jesus is first to receive a resurrection body (Acts 26:23), and then, when He comes (Second Advent) those who belong to Him (all believers).  

As to your questions, it isn't clear whether the 3 sets of God wrath are solely sequential, or there is overlapping.  The 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all have severe earthquakes.  So, it is 3 separate earthquakes, or just 1, described 3 times?

I don't know, and scholars don't agree with each other on that.

I know. There is an earthquake as part of the sign of the Day of the Lord, BEFORE the tribulaton.
The earthquake when the Two Witnesses rise - written in chapter 7 - are written in a parenthesis, but that earthquake is really the same earthquake we read at the 7th vial.

If you notice, the 7th vial earthquake is BY FAR the biggest. That is why God raises those from before the flood - that is the OT saints.

[DeighAnn]

24 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why did you write "entirely without any Scriptural evidence?" I think you should have written that you have not found any evidence. There is evidence, but it seems you have not found it.

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice the bolded text: He is going to appear unto them that look for Him. I think the writer left the flip side to our imagination: that He WON'T appear to those who are NOT looking for Him. 

No, the writer did not write an only, but I believe it fits.

Questions:
1. Do you believe Revelation has a timeline?
2. If so, where do you place "the trib" on that timeline?

Are you saying this HAS NOT applied to anyone ever so far?   

If this happens at 'pre trib' and some are left behind then how does He appear the next time?  

Are you saying that NO ONE except those of the final generation and those 'in pre trib'  does this verse apply to?  

If so, then HOW did you come to that conclusion as it is NOT WRITTEN that that is all who it applies to.  Precept on Precept.... is this the time right before Satan is cast out of heaven being spoken of here?  What words do you find that info in?  

 

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think you have not counted correctly. You are trying to MORPH two comings into one, and in so doing trying to WARP time so that a point in time AFTER the tribualtion meets a point in time BEFORE the tribulation. Sorry, friend, but it won't work. 

Thank you for your opinion, but I am solid on what I have said.  The OT prophesied about 2 advents, period. If there will be 3 advents, NT readers would have needed a clear explanation about which is which.

And the biggest problem for pretribbers is the total LACK of any clear verse about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.  It's all just speculation. 

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

1 Thes. 4 speaks of a coming BEFORE WRATH and before the DAY.
Revelation shows us the DAY begins before the WEEK. Since the rapture is before the DAY, then it is also before the WEEK. That is why millions of believers are pre-trib. They found it in scripture.
You see, in counting 6 ALWAYS comes before 7.
The 6th seal will most certainly be opened before the 7th seal.
The Day will start before the WEEK will start.

Nope.  Even my Study Bible labels 1 Thess 4:13-18 as "the Second Advent".  There is no evidence for anything "before wrath".  

I don't have a counting problem.  I think you are just playing with numbers.

[iamlamad]

58 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Rather, IF God was hiding something from the OT writers, there would be clear evidence in the NT about a "3rd advent" so readers wouldn't be confused about which one was being referenced.  The other problem with a pretrib rapture is that there is only 1 resurrection of believers, and Rev 20:4 proves that it will occur when the King of kinds comes back to earth.  That is very clear.

I think you are just jumping around.  1 Thess 4, Matt 24 and Rev 19 are all the same thing, but focusing on different aspects of the same thing;  the return of the King.

God was not "hiding." He waited to see of the Jews would accept the risen Lord as their Messiah.  Of course He foreknew this, but it seems God wants to SEE.

He chose not to reveal some things in the Old Testament. You can ask Him why later.

1 Thes 4 CANNOT be the same coming as Matthew 24. One coming is before the Trib, while the other is after the trib. Sorry, friend, but you cannot warp time.

Did you just not notice in 1 Thes. That this coming is just before Wrath?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Are you saying this HAS NOT applied to anyone ever so far?   

If this happens at 'pre trib' and some are left behind then how does He appear the next time?  

Are you saying that NO ONE except those of the final generation and those 'in pre trib'  does this verse apply to?  

If so, then HOW did you come to that conclusion as it is NOT WRITTEN that that is all who it applies to.  Precept on Precept.... is this the time right before Satan is cast out of heaven being spoken of here?  What words do you find that info in?  

 

I only COPIED Heb. 9:28. If you have a problem, it must with that that writer. 

Just so you know, that verse specifies "second" appearance.