The woman in Revelation 12

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Since the time Jesus apearance to John and his return from Heaven after his ascension when he went to where John was in the island of Patmos and everything that he told John about the churches, it leads us to understand two things.

The first one is that Jesus since the time of his ascension and till the time he came back and showed himself to John He had left the churches on their own and only with the help of the Holy Spirit.

But beginning with his appearance to John and his informing of the churches and all those  whose sins are under his blood that he is about to begin his rein over his own people.

And he began do that by first informing them what he wants from them, giving them specific commandments to each and everyone of them and in due time he is evaluating them and rewards them according to their obedience to his commandments to what he had asked from them. 

He has began to rein over them and Judge them and rewards them accordingly to  their conformity in what he is asking them. 

This what he said he is about to do to begin to rein over the churches. His Judgment shows that he is beginning to Poimeno with the authority of a king who is also their great Shepherd. ....and they cannot escape his judgments unless they give him what he is asking from them, from   each church or from each individual. 

Jesus was asking a deferring thing from each one of them because they were in different situations.  

Since that time Jesus has not left and he is seeking to rein over people who will give him their obedience in what he is asking them. *****

*********In revelation 12: it's not about the woman, it is about the Christ.  

The woman who gave birth to the promise Christ she is an instrument of God to used to bring forth the Christ of God who after his death on the Cross, God begins to have children by faith in his Christ. 

The children of Zion, those who live on God's Holy Mount of Zion can only be those who have their sins forgiven in the blood of Jesus. 

John 1: The Law came through Moses, but Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ. 

We are not called to be the children of the Law first and then to be the children of God in Jesus Christ, but rather the children of the Law are called to come out from the Law of Moses and have the forgiveness of their sins by the blood of the Lamb of God who died on the Cross for the forgiveness of the sins of both Jews and Gentiles...

Only the children of God in Jesus Christ the "sheep" of Jesus can pasture on the Holy mountain of Zion the mount of God. Only those whose sins are in the EVERLASTING  forgiveness of the blood of Jesus Christ...

 

Thank you for your answer. Instead of answering point by point, I will give my view of the part you wrote about. then you can compare notes.

The Book of Revelation is about the "REVEALING" of Jesus Christ from heaven to take His rightful place on earth as King of kings. John was to show his fellow Christians what had happened, what was happening at His time and what would be the events surrounding the "REVEALING" of Jesus from the sky.

Chapter 1 is things that have been. the vision of the risen Lord is sobering. He is angry and disenchanted with His Church on earth. Chapter 2 to 3 are what "was" at John time of writing (ca. 96 AD). The Churches are apostate. Only one is commended. The last four will see Christ's coming. the rest of the Book of Revelation concerns what happens in the last Week of Daniel 9, or the closing years of this age. Chapter 4 starts with "things that must come to pass".

Chapter 4 concerns the coronation of Jesus and Him receiving His own throne to set up on earth. Chapter 5 is praise by the heavenly host for a new king. Chapter 6 is our Lord opening the Seals to pour out God's wrath on the whole earth. Chapter 7 is about two companies of men who go through the Great Tribulation and survive. One is the Jewish Remnant predicted in Romans 9 and 11, and the other is the Christians whose garments were dirty and needed to be washed.

Chapter 11 is about events in Jerusalem during the 42 months of Great Tribulation. Jerusalem will be the political Capital of the earth because the all-powerful king, the Beast has his home there. Jerusalem will also be the religious Capital of the world because that same Beast is in the Temple there, calling himself God.

Chapter 12 concerns THREE OFFSPRING of a symbolic Woman and how they fare during the last 1260 days of this age. As I built the case for in previous postings, these three OFFSPRING represent the total of God's people on earth. They are:
(i) The Overcomers of the Church raptured to heaven and displacing the Dragon and his angels. Michael does the fighting.
(ii) The rest of Christianity - those not ready when the rapture occurred.
(iii) The Jewish Remnant

The Woman, if you put all the facts together is New Jerusalem "the mother of us all" (of God's people) Christian and Israelite. But she is not yet perfected. Only after the 1,000 year reign of Christ will she be perfected.

Because Joseph of Egypt had a dream, and some points are similar to the Woman, Bible scholars have tried to force the vision to be be something not according to the facts. The Woman is totally different to Joseph's mother (who was one of FOUR women). The sun is different - a father in Genesis and clothing in Revelation. The moon and stars are different. And so on ...

As I said, "Revelation" comes from the Greek word "Apokalypsis". And "apokalypsis" means "THE REVEALING". Revelation is all about the events on earth at the time of our Lord's "revealing" from heaven.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your answer. Instead of answering point by point, I will give my view of the part you wrote about. then you can compare notes.

The Book of Revelation is about the "REVEALING" of Jesus Christ from heaven to take His rightful place on earth as King of kings. John was to show his fellow Christians what had happened, what was happening at His time and what would be the events surrounding the "REVEALING" of Jesus from the sky.

Chapter 1 is things that have been. the vision of the risen Lord is sobering. He is angry and disenchanted with His Church on earth. Chapter 2 to 3 are what "was" at John time of writing (ca. 96 AD). The Churches are apostate. Only one is commended. The last four will see Christ's coming. the rest of the Book of Revelation concerns what happens in the last Week of Daniel 9, or the closing years of this age. Chapter 4 starts with "things that must come to pass".

Chapter 4 concerns the coronation of Jesus and Him receiving His own throne to set up on earth. Chapter 5 is praise by the heavenly host for a new king. Chapter 6 is our Lord opening the Seals to pour out God's wrath on the whole earth. Chapter 7 is about two companies of men who go through the Great Tribulation and survive. One is the Jewish Remnant predicted in Romans 9 and 11, and the other is the Christians whose garments were dirty and needed to be washed.

Chapter 11 is about events in Jerusalem during the 42 months of Great Tribulation. Jerusalem will be the political Capital of the earth because the all-powerful king, the Beast has his home there. Jerusalem will also be the religious Capital of the world because that same Beast is in the Temple there, calling himself God.

Chapter 12 concerns THREE OFFSPRING of a symbolic Woman and how they fare during the last 1260 days of this age. As I built the case for in previous postings, these three OFFSPRING represent the total of God's people on earth. They are:
(i) The Overcomers of the Church raptured to heaven and displacing the Dragon and his angels. Michael does the fighting.
(ii) The rest of Christianity - those not ready when the rapture occurred.
(iii) The Jewish Remnant

The Woman, if you put all the facts together is New Jerusalem "the mother of us all" (of God's people) Christian and Israelite. But she is not yet perfected. Only after the 1,000 year reign of Christ will she be perfected.

Because Joseph of Egypt had a dream, and some points are similar to the Woman, Bible scholars have tried to force the vision to be be something not according to the facts. The Woman is totally different to Joseph's mother (who was one of FOUR women). The sun is different - a father in Genesis and clothing in Revelation. The moon and stars are different. And so on ...

As I said, "Revelation" comes from the Greek word "Apokalypsis". And "apokalypsis" means "THE REVEALING". Revelation is all about the events on earth at the time of our Lord's "revealing" from heaven.

 

I did not understand what you posted in away that I can say that I agree on this point or disagree on that point and give my reasons why I agree or I disagree to cause a discussion on the reasons of either agreement or disagreement. 

But I can only comment on what I have come to understand in such a way that I can argue my point with always room for further growing and considering new input ...there are some  foundations, that meant to guide us like the stars  can guide a man to find his way in his journey and so are foundations for us to help us to understand what we believe. 

One of them is about the one who came from God and who left everything to be found in the form of man, to be conceived in the womb of a specific woman and enter our world at the time he was born from the womb of his mother after the full term of the gestation period of nine months for a human.

He was not from a Gentile he was Jewish flesh he took his flesh his humanity from his mother he was fully human but he was devine...

The only man from God that he is distinguish from Adam in the Garden and it does not do justice to him to be call the second Adam, because he can be distinguished from the Adam in the Garden of Eden in more than one way. 

Adam fall and needed to be in him to have what he had and John the Baptist who did not fall also needed to be in him.

He was the first one in what he was and everyone needed to be in him, and in his Inheritance...his Inheritance was different than the Inheritance of the two AAs, the double A's, Adam and Abraham....men with their own Inheritance.  

Not an everlasting Inheritance because both were looking forwards to the end of their Inheritance when they will be in the Inheritance of Jesus Christ...

They both knew that their heirs will be called to also Joint in the Inheritance of Jesus Christ...this will be the only way to be with them when they are in Jesus Christ. 

Jesus Christ took their Patriarhs unto himself so the rest can follow them. With more clarity Jesus took Abraham or rather Abraham was invited to joint Jesus so the offspring of Abraham if they wanted to be with him they had to be with God's Christ. This is Jesus.

The natural seed of Abraham cannot be gather in the store house of Abraham after Abraham followed Jesus Christ. Because everything has become new. Because the old has gone and the new has come...

Like in the twinkling of an eye the old year is gone and the new year has started. 

God does not have a wife but he has a Son and Jesus does not have a wife and he has children and his children are also the children of God born to him through Jesus  Christ who does not have a wife. Who could have a wife to have natural children but he only wanted to have spiritual children and this is was his mission to bring to God spiritual children.  

God in the Spirit, Jesus in the body and the Spirit and the children in the Spirit man. 

Jesus had a mother who gave birth to him...and the other children have a mother who gave birth to them. 

This is to emphasize that the children of God in Jesus Christ are only humans they had both and earthly father and mother. 

Salvation has come only to man any man who has an earthly mother and father and who is born from above having his sins forgiven in the blood of Jesus after Jesus died on the Cross. 

Those who believe in God and who also are in the son of God who believe in Jesus Christ are persecuted by the devil in revelation twelve. the born from above.

Those are the children of Jesus because they believe in him...and they have an earthly Father and earthly mother...but through Jesus they have him as their Father because they are his children the children of his blood, having the forgiveness of their sins in his blood, being under the eternal fountain of his blood and have partake of his Spirit, the Spirit of Life. Born to him when they believed in him...the born from above. 

At the time of their phycical death Jesus will take what it belongs to him. He will take unto himself what the Devil used to take before the Cross the Spiritual man, the  soul of man. their physical body it did not belong to the devil and he never took any man while he lived...and so it is with Jesus the body of man it does not belong to Jesus when man dies when a believer in him dies. or their earthly man it does not belong to him when the man dies, but the Spiritual man belongs to him the spirit man of the believer belongs to him because he redeemed the part of us the Devil used to take at the time of the death of man..the soul of man. The man without his phycical body. 

The physical man belongs to his family and they do what they think they should do at the time of his death...but the Spiritual man-the soul of man belongs to Jesus and that's whom Jesus is taking ...the Devil cannot contest with Jesus Christ about the soul of the believer of Jesus because the believer  died having his sins wash by the blood of the Lamb of God.

The devil cannot accused and  contest the soul of the believer because the believer died while he had his sins forgiven by the blood of the Lamb, who is Jesus.. and Jesus can testify to it. 

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and they were not afraid of the Devil when they died, because the devil cannot take them the way he used to take the people before Jesus Christ death on the Cross...now Jesus comes and takes them at the time of their death, because they died in Jesus Christ...Jesus had revealed to them that  he will be the one to receive them at the time of their death, so they died having  had the testimony of Jesus Christ in this matter, that he will received at the time of their death and they died without the fear that the Devil will  contest with Jesus for them at the time of their death.

Jesus said I have the Keys of Death and Hades. At the time Revelation was written Jesus had the keys of Death and Hades since the time after his death on the Cross. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, other one said:

I suppose you might be right if the Holy Spirit dictated every word that was put into all the letters that turned out to be our Bible.   I think the writers of those letters used words and phrases that were common knowledge at the time to express what was given to them and sometimes we need to understand those things to grasp the context of what's being said.

I agree with that. I fact it's something I was pondering lately. Paul even injects his personal opinions in many letters in canon. 

But this is prophecy. All prophecy is God breathed. Only the Spirit can reveal the truth of prophecy. And it seems if the prophecy is given it's important hence; we should suss it out and ask for guidance toward truth and understanding. 

So while the Spirit didn't dictate every word of canon He certainly did in all the divine utterance of prophecy. 

[other one]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

All prophecy is God breathed.

I would of course agree that it is God breathed, but was it dictated word for word or did he show John something and let John put the words together....    and, does the translation from Greek to English really convey what John saw or heard.   That's always my thoughts and questions.

[Vine Abider]

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Paul taught the Thessalonians imminent rapture. "Be ready" is the call. In Chapter 5 he prays that God would keep them alive to the rapture. A "whole" man is one whose parts are not sundered in death (v.23). But both Peter and Paul had been told that they would die for the Lord. So, for himself, Paul's outlook is different. We see this in Philippians 3:10-14. Paul hope to "attain to the 'OUT-resurrection'". Then, he strives for the "PRIZE" of the Upward call (lit. Gk.). He thus covers the mature Christian dead AND the living.

Therefore, unless the context says otherwise, the firstfruits are made of the mature dead and the mature living. So also the Man-Child. So also 1st Thessalonians 4. But the argument may be put forward that those of Revelation 14 are (i) "redeemed from the earth" AND "redeemed from among men" indicating that they were alive at the time of harvesting. I'll grant this argument but don't buy it myself. Here's why;

In 1st Thessalonians 4 the sequence is the dead RISE, meet the LIVING and TOGETHER they are caught away. That means for an instant ALL are with each other on the surface of the earth. Thus, they are ALL redeemed from among men and redeemed from the earth. My argument is a little weak, but fulfills the conditions. But there is a stronger argument. It has to do with the bride and the 144,000.

In the three mentions of Christ's Wedding Feast (Matt.22, 25 and Rev.19), TWO regard the guests only. Only in Revelation 19 is the bride in view. The reason is that the wedding feast is "LIKE" the Kingdom of Heaven. the Parables emphasize READINESS. And it is patently obvious that only a small number of Christians will be ready and worthy of entering the wedding Feast. But God has set the day for the Bride, and she is the joy of Christ. The Father will not delay His Son's pleasure till all Christians are fit for the Wedding Feast. Thus, the Bride of Revelation 19 is a REPRESENTATIVE Bride. She is NOT all Christians. Many will be unworthy with no oil and dirty garments

Likewise, God has set the condition for Israel's recovery in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 as a fervent return to what Moses was teaching "THAT DAY". "That day" Moses was expounding the Law. But God is not naive. He knows full well that not ALL of Israel will return to the Law in the last days. Only a REMNANT will (Rom.9 & 11). This REMNANT is those of Revelation 7. They are a REPRESENTATIVE of Israel.

In BOTH cases, Revelation 7 and the Tribes of Israel, and Revelation 14 and the Firstfruits from among men, THEY ARE REPRESENTATIVE and in BOTH cases their number is 144,000. I judge that 12 is the number for God's people and 12,000 is God's people consummated. It is the number of New Jerusalem. My understanding then is that 144,000 is a symbolic number of the REPRESENTATION of God's people that fulfill His plan at the end of this age. If so, then they are ALL who make up the Remnant and ALL ripe Christians.

I could be wrong, but it is the only calculation I know of that is reached by using scripture alone, and which fits the facts.

Thanks for that - lots to chew on!

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I did not understand what you posted in away that I can say that I agree on this point or disagree on that point and give my reasons why I agree or I disagree to cause a discussion on the reasons of either agreement or disagreement. 

But I can only comment on what I have come to understand in such a way that I can argue my point with always room for further growing and considering new input ...there are some  foundations, that meant to guide us like the stars  can guide a man to find his way in his journey and so are foundations for us to help us to understand what we believe. 

One of them is about the one who came from God and who left everything to be found in the form of man, to be conceived in the womb of a specific woman and enter our world at the time he was born from the womb of his mother after the full term of the gestation period of nine months for a human.

He was not from a Gentile he was Jewish flesh he took his flesh his humanity from his mother he was fully human but he was devine...

The only man from God that he is distinguish from Adam in the Garden and it does not do justice to him to be call the second Adam, because he can be distinguished from the Adam in the Garden of Eden in more than one way. 

Adam fall and needed to be in him to have what he had and John the Baptist who did not fall also needed to be in him.

He was the first one in what he was and everyone needed to be in him, and in his Inheritance...his Inheritance was different than the Inheritance of the two AAs, the double A's, Adam and Abraham....men with their own Inheritance.  

Not an everlasting Inheritance because both were looking forwards to the end of their Inheritance when they will be in the Inheritance of Jesus Christ...

They both knew that their heirs will be called to also Joint in the Inheritance of Jesus Christ...this will be the only way to be with them when they are in Jesus Christ. 

Jesus Christ took their Patriarhs unto himself so the rest can follow them. With more clarity Jesus took Abraham or rather Abraham was invited to joint Jesus so the offspring of Abraham if they wanted to be with him they had to be with God's Christ. This is Jesus.

The natural seed of Abraham cannot be gather in the store house of Abraham after Abraham followed Jesus Christ. Because everything has become new. Because the old has gone and the new has come...

Like in the twinkling of an eye the old year is gone and the new year has started. 

God does not have a wife but he has a Son and Jesus does not have a wife and he has children and his children are also the children of God born to him through Jesus  Christ who does not have a wife. Who could have a wife to have natural children but he only wanted to have spiritual children and this is was his mission to bring to God spiritual children.  

God in the Spirit, Jesus in the body and the Spirit and the children in the Spirit man. 

Jesus had a mother who gave birth to him...and the other children have a mother who gave birth to them. 

This is to emphasize that the children of God in Jesus Christ are only humans they had both and earthly father and mother. 

Salvation has come only to man any man who has an earthly mother and father and who is born from above having his sins forgiven in the blood of Jesus after Jesus died on the Cross. 

Those who believe in God and who also are in the son of God who believe in Jesus Christ are persecuted by the devil in revelation twelve. the born from above.

Those are the children of Jesus because they believe in him...and they have an earthly Father and earthly mother...but through Jesus they have him as their Father because they are his children the children of his blood, having the forgiveness of their sins in his blood, being under the eternal fountain of his blood and have partake of his Spirit, the Spirit of Life. Born to him when they believed in him...the born from above. 

At the time of their phycical death Jesus will take what it belongs to him. He will take unto himself what the Devil used to take before the Cross the Spiritual man, the  soul of man. their physical body it did not belong to the devil and he never took any man while he lived...and so it is with Jesus the body of man it does not belong to Jesus when man dies when a believer in him dies. or their earthly man it does not belong to him when the man dies, but the Spiritual man belongs to him the spirit man of the believer belongs to him because he redeemed the part of us the Devil used to take at the time of the death of man..the soul of man. The man without his phycical body. 

The physical man belongs to his family and they do what they think they should do at the time of his death...but the Spiritual man-the soul of man belongs to Jesus and that's whom Jesus is taking ...the Devil cannot contest with Jesus Christ about the soul of the believer of Jesus because the believer  died having his sins wash by the blood of the Lamb of God.

The devil cannot accused and  contest the soul of the believer because the believer died while he had his sins forgiven by the blood of the Lamb, who is Jesus.. and Jesus can testify to it. 

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and they were not afraid of the Devil when they died, because the devil cannot take them the way he used to take the people before Jesus Christ death on the Cross...now Jesus comes and takes them at the time of their death, because they died in Jesus Christ...Jesus had revealed to them that  he will be the one to receive them at the time of their death, so they died having  had the testimony of Jesus Christ in this matter, that he will received at the time of their death and they died without the fear that the Devil will  contest with Jesus for them at the time of their death.

Jesus said I have the Keys of Death and Hades. At the time Revelation was written Jesus had the keys of Death and Hades since the time after his death on the Cross. 

Thank you for your courteous and thoughtful answer. You have touched on some very important points - most of which I can identify with, or am familiar with. As you can see, there are some very different understandings of Revelation 12. We should all have a teachable spirit and thus profit from the studies of others.

Take care and go well brother.

[Diaste]

On 12/1/2022 at 4:19 AM, other one said:

I would of course agree that it is God breathed, but was it dictated word for word or did he show John something and let John put the words together....    and, does the translation from Greek to English really convey what John saw or heard.   That's always my thoughts and questions.

I suppose that would depend on the level of trust a person has that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are firmly in control in spite of any and all efforts of mankind to cast aspersions.

[other one]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

I suppose that would depend on the level of trust a person has that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are firmly in control in spite of any and all efforts of mankind to cast aspersions.

Which Bible translation do they approve?   Worse than that which set of manuscripts are we going to declare are God directed.....

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, other one said:

Which Bible translation do they approve?   Worse than that which set of manuscripts are we going to declare are God directed.....

As long as the concepts are unadulterated there isn't a problem. 

So because there are many copies the ideas are no longer trustworthy? Or would it just be ideas we don't care for? In spite of the many copies salvation by Christ alone is no doubt a valid core concept. 

I'll bet the ideas that keep the congregation donating money to televangelists are also valid no matter which copy is used. 

I don't see any variance in the ideas across the copies. In fact, the existence of many copies that agree is the hallmark of validity. Is it a problem the KJV uses the verb 'had' and the BSB uses 'with'. Not really. It's just a different rendering of an ancient Greek verb. I can look that up and decide myself. 

Jesus is still going to return, the beast will still rise, judgement is coming et al.

One difference that comes up; Is it camel like the Greek or rope like in the Aramaic? Rope is incorrect in my opinion as I find no allusion to rope.

But this is a good example of getting caught up in minutiae straying from the concept that it's difficult, if not impossible, for a rich man to enter heaven. The concept is unchanged as neither rope nor a camel can be threaded through the eye of a needle.

IMO. 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Diaste

[other one]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

So because there are many copies the ideas are no longer trustworthy?

Don't throw trustworthy into the conversation, it's just who decided the words to use in expressing what got told or showed them.    The differences in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are examples.   They told the story of the Gospel in their own words and in different views.   That makes the Bible more believable not less.

But because it is using their own words, they are not always exactly the same....   and my point is that if we understand the general cosmology of the time, we can better understand the context of what they are expressing.   The words and phrases change over time.   Knowledge is learned so if we are not careful by not understanding some of those used at the time, we can get confused or even wrong ideas of what they are saying.