If apostolic succession is true in the Catholic Church then...

[Not of the World]

...why are we not seeing many sick Catholics being miraculously cured by Catholic priests and bishops?  

[farouk]

What we now have is, rather than a line of supposedly infallible men, 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude) revealed in Scripture.

[Not of the World]

17 minutes ago, farouk said:

What we now have is, rather than a line of supposedly infallible men, 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude) revealed in Scripture.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Not of the World said:

...why are we not seeing many sick Catholics being miraculously cured by Catholic priests and bishops?  

A cursory study of the Roman Church will settle the matter. The "Holy" Roman Empire only started with Constantine in 313 AD. A bit late for succession. But whatever history suggests, it is God's Word that decides. The first thing to establish is, what is an Apostle?

The Greek means "a sent one". But the context in the Bible indicates that certain "sent ones" carried enormous authority and exercised their "sending" in an authoritative and foundational way. An example should explain better than I can. In Matthew 16, when our Lord announced the Church for the very first time, He said that He would give the keys of the kingdom to the Church. In Matthew 18 our Lord gives an example - and we see the power of the Church to excommunicate a member, and if legal, our Lord would record it in heaven and uphold it at the Bema. The Church is the judge - not the Elders. The Elders have power over the members but only for keeping order in the Church. They do not tell the saints how to live their lives at home ro have any authority over a member outside of the Meeting Room.

But in 1st Corinthians 5, Paul displays, under inspiration, two great truths. The first is that he completed part of the instruction to the Church. He issued orders that he expected the Church to abide by. The second was that he exercised POWER to hand a Christian over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Notice the protocol. Paul judges the actions of a member of the Assembly, calling him a "brother". He then says that he TOGETHER with the Assembly at Corinth hands the "brother" over to Satan to destroy the body in order to avoid that sin IN the body defiling the spirit. But then he turns to a general and local scenario where he is ABSENT. In this case the Assembly may not initiate the death penalty, bit ONLY excommunicate him.

The reason I show this is that an "Apostle" with an OFFICE or rank, is a man of AUTHORITY. Anybody can be a "sent one", but not just anybody can exercise the OFFICE of Apostle. And it is this revelation of authority and power that the Roman Church, AND many Christian Churches want to have so that thy can control the laity. And the easiest way is to claim "SUCCESSION" - Why? Because if a man (or woman) claims it by private order of God he or she must be tested.

God makes nothing and has nothing that is NOT TESTED. Even the great and everlasting Kingdom that God will set up on earth at the end of this age must be tested. that id why Satan is let loose at the end of the 1,000 years of reign of Christ. It is to test His own Kingdom. And God, knowing of the claims of imposters who want power over the saints so that they can exploit them, lays down a TEST. And in Revelation 2.2 Christ commends the Church at Ephesus for TESTING the Apostles. So what is the test for a man claiming the OFFICE of Apostle?

It is three things.
The man must have witnessed the resurrected Lord Jesus (Act.1:22)
The man must have been taught by Jesus (Act.1:21)
The man must do signs and wonders (Act.2:43, 5:12, 2nd Cor 12:12)

But before we close, there is another consideration. In Hebrews Chapter 5 towards the end, the inspired author reports that God does not want foundations laid again and again. In 1st Corinthians Chapter 3 the building of the Church is addressed. There, the foundation is Jesus. But in Ephesians 2 the Church as FELLOW HEIRS to the Covenant of Promise is addressed and there our Lord Jesus is the "Cornerstone". The Church here is likened to a Kingdom with "citizenship". In this aspect, our Lord becomes the "anchor" and "reference" point to two diverging entities. Two structures, which would normally have not hing to do with each other, are UNIFIED by being joined at the corner. And the one foundation is the Apostles.

Here is the point.  Hebrews 5 says that foundations shouldn't have to be laid more than once. DO YOU THINK THAT GOD WOULD LAY THE FOUNDATION OF HIS COMMONWEALTH MORE THAN ONCE? If your answer is NO, you have just made a very strong case AGAINST SUCCESSION. If the Words of the Apostles are set and the Cannon is complete, and if God has laid the foundation of His commonwealth and will not lay it again THERE IS NOT NEED FOR APOSTLES. They have done their work!

Will the Lord still "SEND" gifted men? YES! Will the Lord "SEND" gifted ones with power and ability for building the Church. OH YES! But does He need Apostles - men of great power to lay down His Word and be foundations. I doubt it.

[Alive]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

A cursory study of the Roman Church will settle the matter. The "Holy" Roman Empire only started with Constantine in 313 AD. A bit late for succession. But whatever history suggests, it is God's Word that decides. The first thing to establish is, what is an Apostle?

The Greek means "a sent one". But the context in the Bible indicates that certain "sent ones" carried enormous authority and exercised their "sending" in an authoritative and foundational way. An example should explain better than I can. In Matthew 16, when our Lord announced the Church for the very first time, He said that He would give the keys of the kingdom to the Church. In Matthew 18 our Lord gives an example - and we see the power of the Church to excommunicate a member, and if legal, our Lord would record it in heaven and uphold it at the Bema. The Church is the judge - not the Elders. The Elders have power over the members but only for keeping order in the Church. They do not tell the saints how to live their lives at home ro have any authority over a member outside of the Meeting Room.

But in 1st Corinthians 5, Paul displays, under inspiration, two great truths. The first is that he completed part of the instruction to the Church. He issued orders that he expected the Church to abide by. The second was that he exercised POWER to hand a Christian over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Notice the protocol. Paul judges the actions of a member of the Assembly, calling him a "brother". He then says that he TOGETHER with the Assembly at Corinth hands the "brother" over to Satan to destroy the body in order to avoid that sin IN the body defiling the spirit. But then he turns to a general and local scenario where he is ABSENT. In this case the Assembly may not initiate the death penalty, bit ONLY excommunicate him.

The reason I show this is that an "Apostle" with an OFFICE or rank, is a man of AUTHORITY. Anybody can be a "sent one", but not just anybody can exercise the OFFICE of Apostle. And it is this revelation of authority and power that the Roman Church, AND many Christian Churches want to have so that thy can control the laity. And the easiest way is to claim "SUCCESSION" - Why? Because if a man (or woman) claims it by private order of God he or she must be tested.

God makes nothing and has nothing that is NOT TESTED. Even the great and everlasting Kingdom that God will set up on earth at the end of this age must be tested. that id why Satan is let loose at the end of the 1,000 years of reign of Christ. It is to test His own Kingdom. And God, knowing of the claims of imposters who want power over the saints so that they can exploit them, lays down a TEST. And in Revelation 2.2 Christ commends the Church at Ephesus for TESTING the Apostles. So what is the test for a man claiming the OFFICE of Apostle?

It is three things.
The man must have witnessed the resurrected Lord Jesus (Act.1:22)
The man must have been taught by Jesus (Act.1:21)
The man must do signs and wonders (Act.2:43, 5:12, 2nd Cor 12:12)

But before we close, there is another consideration. In Hebrews Chapter 5 towards the end, the inspired author reports that God does not want foundations laid again and again. In 1st Corinthians Chapter 3 the building of the Church is addressed. There, the foundation is Jesus. But in Ephesians 2 the Church as FELLOW HEIRS to the Covenant of Promise is addressed and there our Lord Jesus is the "Cornerstone". The Church here is likened to a Kingdom with "citizenship". In this aspect, our Lord becomes the "anchor" and "reference" point to two diverging entities. Two structures, which would normally have not hing to do with each other, are UNIFIED by being joined at the corner. And the one foundation is the Apostles.

Here is the point.  Hebrews 5 says that foundations shouldn't have to be laid more than once. DO YOU THINK THAT GOD WOULD LAY THE FOUNDATION OF HIS COMMONWEALTH MORE THAN ONCE? If your answer is NO, you have just made a very strong case AGAINST SUCCESSION. If the Words of the Apostles are set and the Cannon is complete, and if God has laid the foundation of His commonwealth and will not lay it again THERE IS NOT NEED FOR APOSTLES. They have done their work!

Will the Lord still "SEND" gifted men? YES! Will the Lord "SEND" gifted ones with power and ability for building the Church. OH YES! But does He need Apostles - men of great power to lay down His Word and be foundations. I doubt it.

Well said. I would just add a thought. I think the reason for the brother in Corinth and Ananias and Sapphira was the Lord making sure that folks understood that the Church is serious--that it is important and that the Body of Christ is a Reality. Not just a mundane gathering, but an organism with Christ as Head.

The NT is largely about 'principles'. Principles are interesting things as they can be applied consistently to a variety of issues.

I think I will stop there.

 

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Well said. I would just add a thought. I think the reason for the brother in Corinth and Ananias and Sapphira was the Lord making sure that folks understood that the Church is serious--that it is important and that the Body of Christ is a Reality. Not just a mundane gathering, but an organism with Christ as Head.

The NT is largely about 'principles'. Principles are interesting things as they can be applied consistently to a variety of issues.

I think I will stop there.

 

I agree fully. The grand Type of the Law in action was Elijah and his judgments. The grand type of GRACE was Elisha. He had a double portion and did double the miracles that Elijah did. But a number of his actions were disciplinary. Great grace has been extended to us, but "Holiness becometh thine House". In 1st Corinthians 3 we have a Promise from God - and He has never not fulfilled a promise. 

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Co 3:16–17).

The grammar indicates that the Church is spoken of here. "ye" is collective, but "Temple" is singular. Paul does not say - "put OUT that leaven" in verse 7, but "PURGE ....". The Greek is the same word used in John 15:2 for "pruning" - the act of cutting off and discarding - so disrupting the life-flow of sap and causing death.

The good news though is that a majority of scholars understand that the incestuous brother repented and was restored (2nd Cor.2:6-11). Notice there that the brother is not only restored but is to be "forgiven". His actions did not only hurt God's House and God Himself, but all the members got hurt too. Reminds of Achan in Joshua 6:18-19. His actions threatened all the congregation.

[Alive]

Ah yes…the valley. A place of hope where there is no hope.

[Dennis1209]

To piggyback on @AdHoc and @Alive excellent expository.

Venomous serpent handling is still practiced in a handful of churches in the Application Mountains and die. Pentecostals still practice speaking in tongues, with no one to interpret the babble being uttered. In both cases, what good proceeds out of it?

Apostolic succession ceased with the last apostle John. Its purpose was to establish the church and preach the Gospel worldwide in their native tongues. They were granted powers to back up what they were preaching with the power of Jesus.  

Since the last apostle John, Christians had to learn a native language to communicate the Gospel, and all those gifts had an expiration date.

Though the RCC would disagree with my hermeneutics. 

[AdHoc]

4 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

To piggyback on @AdHoc and @Alive excellent expository.

Venomous serpent handling is still practiced in a handful of churches in the Application Mountains and die. Pentecostals still practice speaking in tongues, with no one to interpret the babble being uttered. In both cases, what good proceeds out of it?

Apostolic succession ceased with the last apostle John. Its purpose was to establish the church and preach the Gospel worldwide in their native tongues. They were granted powers to back up what they were preaching with the power of Jesus.  

Since the last apostle John, Christians had to learn a native language to communicate the Gospel, and all those gifts had an expiration date.

Though the RCC would disagree with my hermeneutics. 

Apostolic succession is vital to those who believe in "Kingdom Now" theology, and those who believe that the power in the Church should not be in the hands of the Assembly. The Roman Church leads the "Kingdom Now" camp. They are well-ensconced in world politics, are super-rich steer the beliefs of about 1.3 billion people. They have every reason NOT to want Christ's return, and every reason to want authentic Apostles so that they can rewrite the bible by "Apostolic authority". The only thing going for this school of theology is that it is out in the open. Rome makes no attempt to hide it. The Pope claims "Vicarius Christ" - Christ's deputy.

Much more subtle, and a thing that God says He "HATES" is the Nicolaitan system (Rev.2:6, 15) among believers. The word "Nicolaitans" was never translated. It means "defeater of the common man", or "superior to the common man". It is a system by which certain of the Assembly take the authority that Christ gave to the WHOLE Assembly. They re usually a group of talented and charismatic men and women, sometimes well-intentioned, who believe that the rest of the Assembly is not up to the task of making decisions for the Church. In this they overthrow God's special training ground for future kings, judges and administrators.

God's original plan, which He has never rescinded, was

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Ge 1:27–28)

I am aware of the restriction on women in the Church during this age, but the rule in the next age is open to both genders. Let's not beleaguer the point here in this thread. Let us rather note1st Corinthians 6:1-4;

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

It is clear that the Lord wanted the quick and the dull Christians to LEARN to exercise judgment. He took into account that mistakes would be made. This valuable training ground has been negated by those who would rule the Church. And the fallen situation is promoted by the Christians themselves. They have sought comfort and not conflict and GIVEN OVER RULE to the Nicolaitans. They are like Captains of ships who leave their bridge and are first in the Lifeboats. But the Lord established this form of government in Matthew 18. No great skill is required. By the time the offended man or woman brings the matter before the Assembly, witnesses have established the matter. The burden is on THEM. The Assembly do not decide on what the defendant says. they are obliged to hear the WITNESSES. Judgment then is a matter of (1) knowing God's Word, and (2) being righteous and having no favorites.

Anyway, a healthy Assembly does not need an Apostle. In Ephesians 4 says who is needed. Apostle is mentioned but it was him who laid down doctrine once for all. After that we need the evangelist to bring in those who the Lord has chosen. We need the Teacher to expound the Word already established by the Apostle. We need the Pastor to coach and guide the flock.

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Apostolic succession is vital to those who believe in "Kingdom Now" theology, and those who believe that the power in the Church should not be in the hands of the Assembly. The Roman Church leads the "Kingdom Now" camp. They are well-ensconced in world politics, are super-rich steer the beliefs of about 1.3 billion people. They have every reason NOT to want Christ's return, and every reason to want authentic Apostles so that they can rewrite the bible by "Apostolic authority". The only thing going for this school of theology is that it is out in the open. Rome makes no attempt to hide it. The Pope claims "Vicarius Christ" - Christ's deputy.

Much more subtle, and a thing that God says He "HATES" is the Nicolaitan system (Rev.2:6, 15) among believers. The word "Nicolaitans" was never translated. It means "defeater of the common man", or "superior to the common man". It is a system by which certain of the Assembly take the authority that Christ gave to the WHOLE Assembly. They re usually a group of talented and charismatic men and women, sometimes well-intentioned, who believe that the rest of the Assembly is not up to the task of making decisions for the Church. In this they overthrow God's special training ground for future kings, judges and administrators.

God's original plan, which He has never rescinded, was

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Ge 1:27–28)

I am aware of the restriction on women in the Church during this age, but the rule in the next age is open to both genders. Let's not beleaguer the point here in this thread. Let us rather note1st Corinthians 6:1-4;

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

It is clear that the Lord wanted the quick and the dull Christians to LEARN to exercise judgment. He took into account that mistakes would be made. This valuable training ground has been negated by those who would rule the Church. And the fallen situation is promoted by the Christians themselves. They have sought comfort and not conflict and GIVEN OVER RULE to the Nicolaitans. They are like Captains of ships who leave their bridge and are first in the Lifeboats. But the Lord established this form of government in Matthew 18. No great skill is required. By the time the offended man or woman brings the matter before the Assembly, witnesses have established the matter. The burden is on THEM. The Assembly do not decide on what the defendant says. they are obliged to hear the WITNESSES. Judgment then is a matter of (1) knowing God's Word, and (2) being righteous and having no favorites.

Anyway, a healthy Assembly does not need an Apostle. In Ephesians 4 says who is needed. Apostle is mentioned but it was him who laid down doctrine once for all. After that we need the evangelist to bring in those who the Lord has chosen. We need the Teacher to expound the Word already established by the Apostle. We need the Pastor to coach and guide the flock.

You should publish a best selling book.