Will our learning and growing continue in Heaven or will we simply be given all knowledge and wisdom?

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Roymond said:

It made me think of Paul saying "We shall be transformed" -- that's what a phase change is, a transformation!

There has been much discussion on a couple of threads lately about Paradise remaining in Hades. I am not rehashing it, but interestingly, Paul was not called downward to Paradise.

Your comment made me think of the apostle Paul and heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. [emphasis added]

It is likely that the Apostle Paul died here in Lystra [first missionary journey] and was allowed to get a glimpse of Heaven and all its glory. Possibly because of all the suffering he would be going through in his ministry, his eventual martyrdom, it was some ‘motivation’ so to speak, to give him more hope and something to look forward to [my speculation]. Paul was forbidden to speak about anything he saw or heard. I suspect Paul was physically dead, but the Lord resurrected [made alive again] Paul, as his service to the Lord was not done. Paul refers to this event in 2 Cor 11:25 and more generally in 2 Tim 3:11.

Philippians 1:23 (KJV) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24. Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

There has been much discussion on a couple of threads lately about Paradise remaining in Hades. I am not rehashing it, but interestingly, Paul was not called downward to Paradise.

Your comment made me think of the apostle Paul and heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. [emphasis added]

It is likely that the Apostle Paul died here in Lystra [first missionary journey] and was allowed to get a glimpse of Heaven and all its glory. Possibly because of all the suffering he would be going through in his ministry, his eventual martyrdom, it was some ‘motivation’ so to speak, to give him more hope and something to look forward to [my speculation]. Paul was forbidden to speak about anything he saw or heard. I suspect Paul was physically dead, but the Lord resurrected [made alive again] Paul, as his service to the Lord was not done. Paul refers to this event in 2 Cor 11:25 and more generally in 2 Tim 3:11.

Philippians 1:23 (KJV) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24. Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

I do not think Paul died, but I do agree God in His Grace used that event to give Paul strength for the times to come. I think it works better to see unlawful in verse 4 as 'not possible'. I am convinced that there were no words in human language or thought to express what he heard. In addition to the language of scripture, I have an experiential reason for seeing it this way.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

I think there will be no end to increased understanding. I connect it to what I think we will be doing throughout eternity. Do you recall when Jesus said, "my Father works and I work"?

One of the aspects of who God is, that of a worker. He works. I believe we will work with Him and that was always His intent. A Family of 'kind', that will accompany Him in working.

I can't prove it, but I suspect this large universe after its renovation or a new one, is there to be filled.

I have long believed, also, but can't prove it--that there will be natural living humans that never die continuuing to reproduce and fill this universe--thus we who are sons of the Living God, will be very busy working. That working will be a vehicle for a never ending learning and appreciation for His 'Eternal Purpose'.

He ducks for cover.

I am glad you brought that up. I have thought the exact same thing but did not mention it for fear of suggestions on a mental evaluation. 😊

I think the Lord wanted two families, a spiritual and a human family. Not that He needed anything, but because of love, and to share in His creation and to work with Him. The angels were created innumerable; humanity was created to multiply and originally given kingship and to subdue the earth. Had and when the earth was subdued and populated, what was next?

As we all know, because of sin death entered the world. Reduction in life spans, disease, age, and global and local plagues, kept the population in check. Eventually, death will be swallowed up in victory.

Adam, and Noah, reproduce and fill the earth until it reaches its maximum sustainable carrying capacity, then stop. When everyone is standing shoulder to shoulder and can not move, STOP! I think we all can see the written global agenda the globalists have imposed on global population control and what is coming.

The Lord’s original plan will pick back up during the millennium and, I suspect, continue through all of eternity. It is not hard to see the exponential population explosion in the millennium alone. As you suggest, and I also suspect, it is not unreasonable to think humanity may eventually become innumerable. As numerable as the sands of the seashores may be literal and not a metaphor. At present, the meager population can be numbered, almost a measly eight billion.

As you said, I cannot prove it either. The Lord created the universe for His glory and handiwork, for signs and seasons. We are just now beginning to realize there are many more planets than stars. That is a whole lot of unoccupied real estate up for grabs. Could it be…

May I join you below?

 

[Alive]

5 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I am glad you brought that up. I have thought the exact same thing but did not mention it for fear of suggestions on a mental evaluation. 😊

I think the Lord wanted two families, a spiritual and a human family. Not that He needed anything, but because of love, and to share in His creation and to work with Him. The angels were created innumerable; humanity was created to multiply and originally given kingship and to subdue the earth. Had and when the earth was subdued and populated, what was next?

As we all know, because of sin death entered the world. Reduction in life spans, disease, age, and global and local plagues, kept the population in check. Eventually, death will be swallowed up in victory.

Adam, and Noah, reproduce and fill the earth until it reaches its maximum sustainable carrying capacity, then stop. When everyone is standing shoulder to shoulder and can not move, STOP! I think we all can see the written global agenda the globalists have imposed on global population control and what is coming.

The Lord’s original plan will pick back up during the millennium and, I suspect, continue through all of eternity. It is not hard to see the exponential population explosion in the millennium alone. As you suggest, and I also suspect, it is not unreasonable to think humanity may eventually become innumerable. As numerable as the sands of the seashores may be literal and not a metaphor. At present, the meager population can be numbered, almost a measly eight billion.

As you said, I cannot prove it either. The Lord created the universe for His glory and handiwork, for signs and seasons. We are just now beginning to realize there are many more planets than stars. That is a whole lot of unoccupied real estate up for grabs. Could it be…

May I join you below?

 

Yes--you may brother and I will take any arrows thrown myself. Be assured, you are safe.

[Dennis1209]

54 minutes ago, Alive said:

I do not think Paul died, but I do agree God in His Grace used that event to give Paul strength for the times to come. I think it works better to see unlawful in verse 4 as 'not possible'. I am convinced that there were no words in human language or thought to express what he heard. In addition to the language of scripture, I have an experiential reason for seeing it this way.

I would not disagree or debate it, it is only my thought and that may be the case. And yes, there would not be human words to express what Paul witnessed. 

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I am not sure what all this entails. How did Peter, James, and John know it was Moses and Elijah that Jesus was speaking with at the Transfiguration? Could it be we will instantly know who everyone is?

Just as the angels who witnessed creation, desiring to investigate Salvation, they are also constantly learning. I think we will constantly be learning about our Lord throughout eternity. 

The Lord's Word will never pass: Looking at all the information and lessons in our Bible. The volumes of hermeneutics and opinions written on the Word of God over millennia. Everyone's theology is not correct.

Perhaps our Master Himself will teach us the depth of His inspired written Word. How many times has someone read a passage a hundred times? For the 101st time, something popped out of scripture, and they wondered why they had never noticed it. 

Just contemplating. 

I think we will know who everyone is. There will be so many wonderful opportunities and blessings in heaven. We are not given very much of a glimpse of what we will experience. That is the way God wants it to be. 

[Alive]

Just now, Dennis1209 said:

I would not disagree or debate it, it is only my thought and that may be the case. And yes, there would not be human words to express what Paul witnessed. 

Amen! To be clearer--Paul was not prevented from expressing what he heard. He was unable to.

I will share once again an experience the Lord gave me that informed my thinking.

In brief. A dream that has helped much in the following years.

________________

-----There was a great field and in that field were a great many bodies that had been dismembered in the most heinous fashion. Parts and pieces all over. As I was looking at the scene a word came to my mind that described it. It was a word that has no human equivalent, but was a combination of things like horror, disgust and atrocity. I didn't know the word then and I haven't since, but it was a powerful impression. Very powerful and impossible to describe. I woke like a shot from a cannon and said, "Lord, what the heck was that". He said, "that is how I feel when I see my body divided".

The impact that lesson had on me can't be overstated.--------

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

Learning and growing is not a result of the curse. YES it most definitely will continue for eternity. Learning and growing was a part of God's original plan,  and anything that was part of the original plan (before the fall) will continue in eternity. Learning, Creativity, Love,  Exploring, etc, these are things that come from God and he put in us for a reason. It is my personal belief that we will never see all of heaven. I believe heaven is bigger than the universe itself and the new Heavens And New Earth will be eternal in size. We will have all of eternity to explore and enjoy all the wonders of God and his awesome creation for all eternity. It will literally be impossible to ever be bored. 

[Roymond]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

There has been much discussion on a couple of threads lately about Paradise remaining in Hades. I am not rehashing it, but interestingly, Paul was not called downward to Paradise.

Your comment made me think of the apostle Paul and heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. [emphasis added]

It is likely that the Apostle Paul died here in Lystra [first missionary journey] and was allowed to get a glimpse of Heaven and all its glory. Possibly because of all the suffering he would be going through in his ministry, his eventual martyrdom, it was some ‘motivation’ so to speak, to give him more hope and something to look forward to [my speculation]. Paul was forbidden to speak about anything he saw or heard. I suspect Paul was physically dead, but the Lord resurrected [made alive again] Paul, as his service to the Lord was not done. Paul refers to this event in 2 Cor 11:25 and more generally in 2 Tim 3:11.

Philippians 1:23 (KJV) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24. Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Hebrew mythology places Paradise as sort of the antechamber to Heaven itself, where the righteous dead are welcomed.  The online  Catholic Encyclopedia has a great description: 

"When a righteous man enters, the vestures of death are removed from him; he is clad in eight robes of the clouds of glory; two crowns are placed upon his head, one of pearls and precious stones, the other of gold; eight myrtles are placed in his hands and he is welcomed with great applause"

Hebrew mythology usually has some connection to scripture; sadly I haven't found a source that explains the links to this.

At any rate, this would mean that Paul was in the room analogous to old-fashioned "waiting parlors" where guests were welcomed by a servant or 'lesser' family member before being received by the master of the house.

Something that seems fantastic to me is that some Hebrew mythology identifies Paradise with the Garden of Eden that was either "hidden" or "removed to another place".  The symbolism of that is wonderful; it would mean that humans going to Heaven are first welcomed back to the Garden (a song line popped into my head here:  "We've got to get ourselves back to the Garden"... [Crosby & Stills?) that our first parents were exiled from, sort of "closing the loop".  And one bit of Hebrew mythology says that once all the righteous have been gathered in then the Garden/Paradise will be joined with Heaven because there would be no one left to welcome.

[Yes, a lot of Hebrew mythology sounds like fantasy novels!)

note:  some of the mythology has Paradise connected to Sheol as well, which would make it a "bridge" between upper and lower realms, as well as the Earth in some mythology -- a kind of "Grand Central of Creation.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Roymond
afterthought added

[Roymond]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I am not sure what all this entails. How did Peter, James, and John know it was Moses and Elijah that Jesus was speaking with at the Transfiguration? Could it be we will instantly know who everyone is?

Just as the angels who witnessed creation, desiring to investigate Salvation, they are also constantly learning. I think we will constantly be learning about our Lord throughout eternity. 

The Lord's Word will never pass: Looking at all the information and lessons in our Bible. The volumes of hermeneutics and opinions written on the Word of God over millennia. Everyone's theology is not correct.

Perhaps our Master Himself will teach us the depth of His inspired written Word. How many times has someone read a passage a hundred times? For the 101st time, something popped out of scripture, and they wondered why they had never noticed it. 

Just contemplating. 

John says the same in different words:

"When we see Him we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

For the ancient church and for today's Orthodox, that's the final culmination of Theosis, "becoming divine", that started in baptism and ends in Heaven.

Which suggests the question, "How will we keep learning when we are 'like Him'?  Just what does that mean?"  Looking at sermons and lessons from the church Fathers, the content can be summarized as "This is a glorious mystery we cannot yet conceive."  Some commentaries speak of this as not happening instantly, that we shall each grow in his/her own way towards that culmination.

My position would be, "It would be wonderful to keep learning for eternity, but if the moment we see Him as He is then we are immediately like Him, or keep learning, I don't really care since I will be joyful either way".