The souls under the altar (Rev. 6:9-11); are they killed before or during the tribulation period?

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Believers who die during the tribulation period soul sleep.

Rev.20:4-6 (NKJV) -

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not LIVE AGAIN until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (emphasis mine)

Please take note of the phrase "live again".

It has nothing to do with soul sleep. Soul sleep is not biblical.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Believers who die during the tribulation period soul sleep.

Rev.20:4-6 (NKJV) -

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not LIVE AGAIN until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (emphasis mine)

Please take note of the phrase "live again".

 

3 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

It has nothing to do with soul sleep. Soul sleep is not biblical.

Missmuffet is right Kenny. First, soul-sleep is a man-made concept. It attributes the condition of the body to the soul. These saints were dead because they were "beheaded". They "LIVE" when the effects of this is reversed. The death of the soul is "perdition". And Vine tells us that "perdition" does not mean cessation of sensory stimulus, but "severe lack of well being". To experience that, one must be very much awake.

In Luke 16 when the Lord narrates events with proper names and real people, the narrative must be true and have taken place - lest the Lord be caught in an untruth (perish the thought). Lazarus' comfort was experiential. Abraham and the rich man were animated and comprehending.

[missmuffet]

10 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Missmuffet is right Kenny. First, soul-sleep is a man-made concept. It attributes the condition of the body to the soul. These saints were dead because they were "beheaded". They "LIVE" when the effects of this is reversed. The death of the soul is "perdition". And Vine tells us that "perdition" does not mean cessation of sensory stimulus, but "severe lack of well being". To experience that, one must be very much awake.

In Luke 16 when the Lord narrates events with proper names and real people, the narrative must be true and have taken place - lest the Lord be caught in an untruth (perish the thought). Lazarus' comfort was experiential. Abraham and the rich man were animated and comprehending.

Suit yourself.

[kenny2212]

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

Missmuffet is right Kenny. First, soul-sleep is a man-made concept. It attributes the condition of the body to the soul. These saints were dead because they were "beheaded". They "LIVE" when the effects of this is reversed. The death of the soul is "perdition". And Vine tells us that "perdition" does not mean cessation of sensory stimulus, but "severe lack of well being". To experience that, one must be very much awake.

In Luke 16 when the Lord narrates events with proper names and real people, the narrative must be true and have taken place - lest the Lord be caught in an untruth (perish the thought). Lazarus' comfort was experiential. Abraham and the rich man were animated and comprehending.

How could God say a person would "live again" if that person is already alive in heaven?

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

How could God say a person would "live again" if that person is already alive in heaven?

At death the spirit leaves the body (Jas.2:26, Lk.23:46). According to Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:7 the human spirit returns to God. But man is not a spirit. He HAS a spirit but man is a SOUL (Gen.2:7) and is called such throughout the Bible. At death the soul descends, just like our Lord did, to the "heart of the earth" - a place called Hades (Matt.12:40). You can see from Acts 2:27-34 that David went there and 50 days after Christ's resurrection, was still there. The body returns to the elements. In the grave our body "sleeps". It has no feeling nor consciousness. But our soul in Hades is fully animated. It is restricted by Gates, and it cannot physically express itself, but among other SOULS, it can think, speak, see and suffer.

Just to set the matter in perspective, the "bottomless pit", which houses Hades, has another jail called Tartaroo (2nd Pet.2:4). This is the jail of those angels who mixed with women at the time of Noah ("and after this"). This is the place of "SPIRITS" (1st Pet.3:19), not SOULS. Angels are spirits, while men are SOULS (Ps.104:4, Gen.12:5).

[Desopixi Seilynam]

Hebrews 12:2

[Jesus] is set down at the right hand of the Father.

And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a scroll...

And I beheld and lo in the middle of the throne a Lamb,
as it had been slain... And He came and took the scroll
out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne.
Revelation 5:1-7

Christ died, rose from the dead, ascended to the right hand of God, and opened that scroll right then, that was the beginning of the end times.

The four horses represent four periods of time.

"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals ..."

[When was that?
When did He ascend to sit at the right hand of the Father?]

White - conquest and formation of the worlds nations as we have them now, the arrival of the kingdom that is the beast.
This time culminated with people like Napoleon,
who himself loved to be depicted on a white horse.

Red - world wide war, it's obvious culmination was Hitler.
The last war that Poland fought before Hitler, was during the Napoleon era.

Black - world wide economic collapse,
it's beginning to culminate now.

Pale - the anti-Christ period of time.

Then the saints cry out for the day of the Lord. Rev 6:9-11

Then the day of the Lord happens. Rev 6:12-17
[Rev 6:12-13 = Matt 24:29, 6:14 = Matt 24:30 Isaiah 2:10,19,21]
"For the great day of His wrath has come" Rev 6:17

Revelation 6-7 is telling a complete prophecy.
Revelation tells the same prophecy repeatedly,
using different visions,
each giving different details of the one same
overarching repeated prophecy. [Rev 9:11, 11:7, 17:8]

 

 

We are deep into the end now, there is no 'rapture'.
What Paul in 1 Thess 4:16-17 is referring to is Revelation 19.

"And to you who are troubled, rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from the sky,
with His holy angles, in flaming fire...
When He shall come to be glorified in His saints"
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

caught up with them, literally in the clouds, in the air.

an exceedingly great army, of resurrected saints;
Ezekiel 37:9-10
On horses, behind the Messiah.  Rev 19:14, Joel 2:4
The marriage supper of the Lamb.
Revelation 19:7-21

He will literally spew fire/lava from His mouth.
The only safe place would be high up in the sky with Him.

Literally fulfilling Malachi 4:3 and Psalm 58:10

And the Lord will utter His voice before His army.
Joel 2:11

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Desopixi Seilynam

[The Light]

On 11/28/2022 at 1:03 PM, Sister said:

Further;

The 6th Seal contains all the 6 trumpets/vials.

No sister, your statement is impossible. The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God and they cannot begin before the seventh seal is opened. Therefore, it is impossible for the 6th seal to contain any trumpets and vials.

On 11/28/2022 at 1:03 PM, Sister said:

 

 

On 11/28/2022 at 1:03 PM, Sister said:

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 11/29/2022 at 2:59 PM, AdHoc said:

At death the soul descends, just like our Lord did, to the "heart of the earth" - a place called Hades (Matt.12:40). You can see from Acts 2:27-34 that David went there and 50 days after Christ's resurrection, was still there. The body returns to the elements. In the grave our body "sleeps". It has no feeling nor consciousness. But our soul in Hades is fully animated. It is restricted by Gates, and it cannot physically express itself, but among other SOULS, it can think, speak, see and suffer.

The Gates of Hell cannot prevail against Christ's Church. Christian souls return to heaven after their earthly tabernacle dies:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house [physical body] of our tabernacle [soul] is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this* [soul-tabernacle] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven...  8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

* "this"/touto is neuter, agreeing with verse 1's tabernacle, not house.

  

[AdHoc]

43 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The Gates of Hell cannot prevail against Christ's Church. Christian souls return to heaven after their earthly tabernacle dies:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house [physical body] of our tabernacle [soul] is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this* [soul-tabernacle] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven...  8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

* "this"/touto is neuter, agreeing with verse 1's tabernacle, not house.

  

You did not enter into my argument. I'll let it stand. If you have no answer for it, then all you are doing is pit scripture against scripture. I propose you answer my points, and I will then answer yours.

And to save you writing for nothing, my argument does not stand on David writing a Psalm. It stands on Peter making and emphatic statement to CONTRAST Christ's resurrection and escape from Hades while David must languish in Hades till what 1st Corinthians 15:23 predicts - raised "when He COMES" (at the end of the age).

Of Hades not prevailing against the Church in Matthew 16, it is not about a battle. It is about the fact that our BODIES make up the Church (1st Cor.6:15) and while our soul is in Hades the BODY "is destroyed" (as you quoted above in 2nd Corinthians 5). It is a about the resurrection - and David's tomb was still there on Pentecost with the inspired statement in Acts 2:29 that David is still dead.

Your theory about going to heaven at death will need quite some proof to overcome that. And then, Psalm 139:8 tells where you will be with the Lord - Hades

[WilliamL]

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Your theory about going to heaven at death will need quite some proof to overcome that.

Paul taught otherwise, quite clearly:

Phil 1:22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

Christ is in heaven, and that is where Paul said he would go when he died. Can't get more clear than that.