Over-comers and the Second Death

[Mr. M]

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.

Just a couple of observations as I was listening to the Spirit on being an over-comer, and He mentioned

"the second death". I knew of this statement made at the close of one of the messages to the churches. 

If one aspect of being an over-comer is deliverance from the second death, this implies that those who fail

to overcome will be held accountable by the same ministration.

To be an over-comer also reflects in my mind upon these words of Christ:

"but he who endures to the end will be saved". Matthew 24:13

The second observation is the statement "shall not be hurt by the 2nd death."

This reflects in my mind upon this teaching by Paul:

1 Corinthians 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss;

but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

And then John:

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

All judgment is directly proportional to each individual's life works (i.e. a just recompense

of reward/punishment)  and the lake of fire is able to be applied to each individual proportionally.

Some escape unharmed, some suffer great loss, but are saved. And then there are acts of unrighteousness

that are unto death, and we are instructed to not even pray over those sins.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask,

and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death.

I do not say that he should pray about that.

The remaining statements with regards to the second death are found in Revelation 20/21.

Revelation 20:

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The second death has no power over them, for they refused to worship the Beast.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for

the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received

his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. 

This is the second death.

After the final judgment, there is no longer death, or a place for Hades.

Revelation 21:

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying.

There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

Over-comers in the last days refuse to worship the beast or receive his mark. They are blessed with victory

over the second death, and reign for 1000 years. This is the first of two end times resurrections.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection. 

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters,

and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

They are those who receive a full reward of inheritance.

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for,

but that we may receive a full reward.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Mr. M
cosmetic

[AdHoc]

After the Roman Catholic Church assumed leadership of Christianity, we have been subject to "leaven". Leaven is a wondrous thing, but it is always negative in the Bible. What it does is make bread more palatable and easier to chew. It inflates the loaf by fermentation, and a little leaven is very effective to leaven the whole lump of dough. The influence of leaven is never restricted. Once it is in the dough, no knife can cut it out. The Second Death is no exception. Let's see what it is about.

The first thing we learn is that the Second Death is used interchangeably with the "Lake of Fire", "Gehenna", "destruction" and "perdition.". Roman catholic translators like to lump it under the title of "HELL". It is so much more effective to have an illiterate peasantry who will accept, without study, a simple concept that can frighten them. So let's be pedantic and clinical. What is the Second Death.

The first thing we can discover without investigating the original languages is that physical death is the result of the "sin-nature" we inherited from Adam. Romans 6:23 says it outright and Romans 5:12-17 explains where it comes from. And it is obvious with even superficial study, that the Second Death is the wages of our TRESPASSES. One goes to the Second Death, or Lake of Fire because we "transgressed" (Is.66.24). But the Lake of Fire and the Second Death are concepts to illustrate something. Together with "Gehenna", they illustrate what happens to a transgressor. The only true word NAMING the Second Death is the word we render "PERDITION"

According to Vine, "Perdition" means NOT ANNIHILATION, but a "SEVERE CASE OF LACK OF WELL-BEING" - or, in modern language, "grueling suffering physically and psychologically". Matthew 10:28 tells us what Gehenna entails. 

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna

The Second Death is constant, unending pain inflicted by God on men who sought to damage God and His purposes. It is a STATE, not a PLACE. Isaiah 66 .24 and Mark 9 define it as "their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched"! In the parables about the Kingdom, our lord said that any man who "lost his SOUL" who GAIN it when Chris returns. The Second Death is the end of well-being. Few Christians realize this but our Lord Jesus experienced the Second Death in Gethsemane. He says

37 "... and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

But the terrible pain of the soul had a terrible effect on His Body. He sweated blood. No man has Christ's attributes. He is, in all aspects, a superior specimen of a man. But this courageous Man was terrified of what lay before Him. He was about to receive His Father's TOTAL retribution for all sins ever committed (Isa.53;5, 10).

With this definition established, how does this apply to Christians - as the title of the thread intimates? It is this. If a Christian does not deny Himself, take up his cross daily, face the wrath and scorn of men, and face the chastisement of God, he will suffer a loss. And this loss is so heavy that the suffering is at the level of the Second Death. The only difference to what happens to a murderer as opposed to a Christian who fails at the Bema, is that the murderer lives in "perdition" forever, while the Christian is only "hurt" of the Second Death. "Perdition" for the established sinner is "forever" and it "destroys" him ("perdition" and "destroy" are used interchangeably). They do not mean annihilate. The sense of the Greek is "made useless for the intended task". the Titanic is designed and built to sail through the waves. But this masterpiece and proud ship now lies under the waves. It is "destroyed".

The Christian was SAVED FOR A PURPOSE. That purpose is NOT to go to heaven. That purpose was to be (i) in the image and likeness of Christ in thought, word and deed, (ii) to be a Bride "meet" for Christ, (iii) to be a Temple so God could dwell on earth, and (iv) to be capable administrators for God in His government of the earth. If a Christian does not reach this standard of sanctification by the end of his /her life, they are deemed NOT to have Overcome. They do NOT lose their salvation from eternal fire and worm. They do not stop being "sons of God". But they are found UNWORTHY to be administrators and cast out of Christ's presence for 1,000 years. The thousand years are then used, not as reward but for chastisement. And that deep sense of loss and failure, couple with the longing for Christ's presence, produces symptoms of THE SECOND DEATH!

Note carefully the reason for suffering "HURT" of the Second Death. Revelation 2:10-11; Those who do not value their lives in the service of the Lord, and Revelation 20:6; Those who did not value their lives for the testimony and Word of Jesus Christ. What is lost? Praise by Jesus, fame, power over the Nations to rule them for Christ, wealth, God's pleasure, bliss, happiness. These are all lost or gained at the Bema.

[LuftWaffle]

As an annihilationist I find people tend to overcomplicate the Bible a great deal.
The second death is simply dying a second time. Nothing more nothing less.

The trajectory for the saved would be:

Birth -> Salvation -> Death -> Resurrection -> Eternal life

The trajectory for the unsaved would be:

Birth -> No salvation -> Death -> Resurrection -> Judgement -> Condemnation -> Death (again and permanent this time)

This understanding is simple enough that a child can understand it, and it comports perfectly with what the Bible teaches.
The Lake of fire that John saw in the vision is simply a symbolic representation of the second and final death, 
in the same way that for instance, the harlot that John saw in the vision is a symbolic representation of Mystery Babylon.

[Selah7]

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

- Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

I understand it as follows:  This takes place at the Great White Throne Judgement after the Millennium.  The over-comers whose names are written in the Book of Life will receive immortality/eternal life.  Those whose names are not written there will go into “the lake of fire,” the second death.  After this comes the ETERNITY:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

- Revelation 21:1-8 (KJV)

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, LuftWaffle said:

The Lake of fire that John saw in the vision is simply a symbolic representation of the second and final death, 
in the same way that for instance, the harlot that John saw in the vision is a symbolic representation of Mystery Babylon.

Hi @LuftWaffle

SDA preach a limited stint of the damned in the Lake of Fire.

I am persuaded that the Lake of Fire is a theographical place where God's Wrath permanently resides, along with the things that give Him cause for Wrath.

Deu 4:24  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
 

[LuftWaffle]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Hi @LuftWaffle

SDA preach a limited stint of the damned in the Lake of Fire.

I am persuaded that the Lake of Fire is a theographical place where God's Wrath permanently resides, along with the things that give Him cause for Wrath.

Deu 4:24  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
 

Hi Michael, 
I'm definitely not SDA or JW, I'm an evangelical.
Describing the death and ultimate destruction of the unsaved as a limited stint, is a strange way to put it. Can a death sentence by hanging, for instance be described as a "limited stint at the end of a rope?"
The punishment of the unsaved is death, and that death is permanent.

What do you mean by 'theographical place'? I've never heard that term before.

When you say 'permanently resides, along with the things that give Him cause for Wrath': are you saying that God is not capable of destroying that which causes Him wrath, but must instead relegate such things to a dark corner of His creation? 

 

Quote

Deu 4:24  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

What does it mean for a fire to consume something?

Edited December 5, 2022 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

I understand it as follows:  This takes place at the Great White Throne Judgement after the Millennium.  The over-comers whose names are written in the Book of Life will receive immortality/eternal life.  Those whose names are not written there will go into “the lake of fire,” the second death.  After this comes the ETERNITY:

I think it's important to understand that Revelation is full of symbolism, and that the visionary elements such as the lake of fire, the beast, the harlot etc. be understood as such rather than a literal narration of what will happen. The angel interprets the lake of fire for us as referring to the second death. So there's no reason so read it any other way.

I think it's a mistake to see the 'lake of fire' as a literal place and the 'second death' as symbolic.

Other than that I agree with what you said. The overcomers whose names are written in the book of life, will get to live forever, they receive immortality.
The unsaved will not be immortal, they will die a second time. And their death will be permanent, eternal, irrevocable etc.

Edited December 5, 2022 by LuftWaffle

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

visionary elements such as the lake of fire

I might agree with you, but with this account I doubt it is symbolic
Luke 16:23-25 (KJV) [23]
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
 

[Michael37]

8 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

What do you mean by 'theographical place'? I've never heard that term before.

Theographical: From Greek theos, God + graphia, description. 

- pertaining to a place or thing in the Divine Realm as distinct from the Natural Realm. 

[farouk]

11 hours ago, Selah7 said:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

- Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

I understand it as follows:  This takes place at the Great White Throne Judgement after the Millennium.  The over-comers whose names are written in the Book of Life will receive immortality/eternal life.  Those whose names are not written there will go into “the lake of fire,” the second death.  After this comes the ETERNITY:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

- Revelation 21:1-8 (KJV)

@Selah7 Revelation certainly has a lot of searching verses...........