Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[The Barbarian]

On 6/19/2023 at 6:11 AM, FreeGrace said:

One more thing:  if the traditional translation of Gen 1:2 is correct, there is the inexplicable problem of "apparent age" of the earth and universe.  Why would God create the earth and universe with apparent age?  That is deception.

Gerald Aardsma has tried to resolve this difficulty by suggesting a "virtual age" with all the evidence for evolution and long ages being a sort of backstory God created that never actually happened.   The real story begins, he thinks, about 7,000 years ago.

 

[FreeGrace]

8 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Gerald Aardsma has tried to resolve this difficulty by suggesting a "virtual age" with all the evidence for evolution and long ages being a sort of backstory God created that never actually happened.   The real story begins, he thinks, about 7,000 years ago.

I agree with his age, minus about 1 millennium.  I think 2 Peter 3:8 is a statement about the total history of the present earth, which is 7,000 years.  But since we haven't had the MK yet, the story begins about 6,000 years ago.

As to "virtual age", that isn't different than "apparent age".  And both would be a clear deception on the part of God if He did create the universe with either phony age.

For me, there is no difficulty, if one accepts the more accurate translation of Gen 1:3 by comparing 2 key words in v.2 with how they are translated elsewhere in the OT.  Then we clearly see an unknown time gap that allows for however old the universe and earth are calculated to be.

And evolution be DAMNED.  It has no place in the Bible or reality.  God created the earth without any issues, like "formless" which isn't even real.  Every object does have form, unless it is invisible and therefore has no form.

But, (LXX) the earth BECAME a WASTELAND, not "without form".  So God restored the planet for man's use.

Simple.  Very old earth, no one knows exactly how old, and doesn't matter.  Something happened that wasted the earth and God simply restored it for man.

:)

[The Barbarian]

39 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

And evolution be DAMNED.

It's God's creation.   An observable phenomenon.   Perhaps you don't know what biological evolution is.   What do you think it is?

40 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

It has no place in the Bible or reality.

It's an observed reality.   I think you're confusing the phenomenon with the theory that explains it.

 

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It's God's creation.   An observable phenomenon.   Perhaps you don't know what biological evolution is.   What do you think it is?

God created the heavens and earth by His spoken word.  Psa 33:9 -  For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

As for biological evolution, no offense, but I don't care what it is.  I know what God did, both in original creation, and the restoration.

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It's an observed reality.   I think you're confusing the phenomenon with the theory that explains it.

Nope, I'm not confusing anything with anything.  But thanks for your concern.

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

As for biological evolution, no offense, but I don't care what it is.  

It only matters to biologists,animal breeders, physicians, farmers, etc.   Most people can ignore it.

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

It's an observed reality.   I think you're confusing the phenomenon with the theory that explains it.

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Nope, I'm not confusing anything with anything.

Yep.   The phenomenon of evolution is just God's creation.   Evolutionary theory is man's attempt to explain it.    Just as gravitation is God's creation and Newton's theory of gravitation is man's attempt to explain it.

Of course, we know why evolution works, but we still aren't exactly sure why gravity works.

 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

FreeGrace said: 

As for biological evolution, no offense, but I don't care what it is. 

It only matters to biologists,animal breeders, physicians, farmers, etc.   Most people can ignore it.

There you go.  Unless there are examples of species becoming another species, I see no real point in whatever biological evolution is.

Now, I am aware of those of one biological sex "identifying" as the opposite sex.  But that wouldn't qualify as evolution, as much as some would like to claim that it is.  

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Yep.   The phenomenon of evolution is just God's creation.   Evolutionary theory is man's attempt to explain it.

I don't believe God created the universe in an evolutionary way.  Psa 33:9 is rather clear.  He spoke it into existence.  I can just imagine the "big bang" that caused.

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

    Just as gravitation is God's creation and Newton's theory of gravitation is man's attempt to explain it.

Of course, we know why evolution works, but we still aren't exactly sure why gravity works.

Again, I don't believe in evolution.  I believe in the big bang, when God simply spoke everything into existence!  All at once!

Edited June 22, 2023 by FreeGrace

[The Barbarian]

It only matters to biologists,animal breeders, physicians, farmers, etc.   Most people can ignore it.

50 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

There you go.

Well, I'm a biologist, so I know about how the theory matters to such things.

51 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Unless there are examples of species becoming another species

That's evolution too.  But evolution includes evolution within a species.   Macroevolution is the evolution of new species.  Even many creationist groups now admit that fact:

Answers in Genesis:
Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging...Nine out of ten species alive today have arisen in the last 200,000 years

https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/speciation/

54 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

But that wouldn't qualify as evolution, as much as some would like to claim that it is.

Biological evolution is defined as "a change in allele frequency in a population", which would include evolution within a species as well as macroevolution.

55 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't believe God created the universe in an evolutionary way.

I don't see how he could have created galaxies, stars, and solar systems by a change in allele frequencies, so I think you're right.

Just as gravitation is God's creation and Newton's theory of gravitation is man's attempt to explain it.

Of course, we know why evolution works, but we still aren't exactly sure why gravity works.

57 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Again, I don't believe in evolution.

That's the funny thing about God's creation.    It doesn't care what you think of it.   Doesn't care what you think of gravitation, either.

 

[Fallen into Grace]

You can have science with God. You can't with evolution, which is a fairy tail. Both Creation and evolution are religions that require faith. But with Christianity and Creation It's a lot more simple to believe in than evolution. It makes people think we weren't made in God's image but we're descended from monkeys and slime. And people say Christianity is hard to reconcile. It's impossible to reconcile the two because they are the complete opposite of each other in every way.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

FreeGrace said: 

Unless there are examples of species becoming another species

That's evolution too.  But evolution includes evolution within a species.   Macroevolution is the evolution of new species.  Even many creationist groups now admit that fact:

That's evolution too.  But evolution includes evolution within a species.   Macroevolution is the evolution of new species.

What examples of macroevolution?

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

  Even many creationist groups now admit that fact:

Answers in Genesis:
Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging...Nine out of ten species alive today have arisen in the last 200,000 years

https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/speciation/

Biological evolution is defined as "a change in allele frequency in a population", which would include evolution within a species as well as macroevolution.

I don't see how he could have created galaxies, stars, and solar systems by a change in allele frequencies, so I think you're right.

I stick with the Bible and not theories.  

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Just as gravitation is God's creation and Newton's theory of gravitation is man's attempt to explain it.

And the Bible explains God's creation.  No theory needed.

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Of course, we know why evolution works, but we still aren't exactly sure why gravity works.

Sure we do.  The force of gravity pulls our feet to the ground so we don't float.  There would be no population ON the earth if there was no gravity.

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

That's the funny thing about God's creation.    It doesn't care what you think of it.   Doesn't care what you think of gravitation, either.

Personally, as I age, I'm not as fond of it.

[Neighbor]

See Gerald Schroeder online for short introductory presentations of how  six days and multiple billions of years might be the very same time span.