Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

It was YOU who said you were comfortable with contradictions.  Don't you remember what you post?  

So this was my response to your comment:

 

FreeGrace said: 

Thanks.  That's all I need to know.  So God's Word contradicts itself.  Wow.

 

Yea I know but the other post is the one I thought you where say your comfortable with contradictions. Though I wouldn't deem them contradictions just deeper meaning. I'm sure in the bible that this generation can grasp somethings and for tomorrow's generation.

Knowledge of the Bible has increased since it's conception.

[DeighAnn]

27 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Alive to write about it, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  

I am always amazed that when the SAME EXACT WORDS are used in two different contexts and one of them is clearly about total destruction (uninhabitable wasteland), that those who reject a very old earth simply ignore that fact.

Same exact words means the same exact status.

So there was a man left.  Weren't there a few men left?  And weren't there others who came from other places?  

If there were vineyards then it wouldn't be 'tohu' and a wilderness, would it?  And if there were vineyards there would be 'sunlight', right?  And if there were people like Governers assigned to it and Jeremiah still there, it wouldn't desolate, would it?


PLEASE, tell me how does one overcome, reconcile or dispose of all these 'conflicts'.  Is there some other BOOK or other verses somewhere that tell 'this is speaking to the fall of Jerusalem', skip all those conflicts...



23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

 
 

[LiveWire]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Not according to v.16, 19 and 21.  

Again, I haven't twisted or made up anything.  

The SAME EXACT words that describe what happened to earth is used to describe what happened to the land of Israel.  

But it doesn't fit some people's agendas.

הַזְכִּ֣ירוּ לַגּוֹיִ֗ם הִנֵּה֙ הַשְׁמִ֣יעוּ עַל־יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם נֹצְרִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים מֵאֶ֣רֶץ הַמֶּרְחָ֑ק וַֽיִּתְּנ֛וּ עַל־עָרֵ֥י יְהוּדָ֖ה קוֹלָֽם׃

Tell the nations: Here they are!
Announce concerning Jerusalem:
Watchers are coming from a distant land,
They raise their voices against the towns of Judah.

^

Watchers, is an Enochian term they used between periods of king Solomon's Temple and 2nd Temple referring to Deuteronomy and Psalms and Genesis 6 speaking about ANGELS that rebelled against God.

 

מֵעַ֣י ׀ מֵעַ֨י ׀ (אחולה) [אֹחִ֜ילָה] קִיר֥וֹת לִבִּ֛י הֹמֶה־לִּ֥י לִבִּ֖י לֹ֣א אַחֲרִ֑שׁ כִּ֣י ק֤וֹל שׁוֹפָר֙ (שמעתי) [שָׁמַ֣עַתְּ] נַפְשִׁ֔י תְּרוּעַ֖ת מִלְחָמָֽה׃

Oh, my suffering, my suffering!
How I writhe!
Oh, the walls of my heart!
My heart moans within me,
I cannot be silent;
For I hear the blare of horns,
Alarms of war.

^

Still concern over the rebellion of the Watchers.

 

עַד־מָתַ֖י אֶרְאֶה־נֵּ֑ס אֶשְׁמְעָ֖ה ק֥וֹל שׁוֹפָֽר׃ {פ}

How long must I see standards
And hear the blare of horns?

^

still nothing about a human army whatsoever.

 

 

 

The term “Watchers,” meaning “wakeful ones” (Aramaic ןיריע), glossed as “sons of Heaven” in 1 En. 6:2, refers to a class of angels, mentioned also in the Bible in Dan. 4:10, 14, 20.¹ Even within the Book of the Watchers it is used of the holy angels in heaven (e.g., 12:2-3, 20:1).

Edited July 8, 2023 by LiveWire

[LiveWire]

10 minutes ago, LiveWire said:

The term “Watchers,” meaning “wakeful ones” (Aramaic ןיריע), glossed as “sons of Heaven” in 1 En. 6:2, refers to a class of angels, mentioned also in the Bible in Dan. 4:10, 14, 20.¹ Even within the Book of the Watchers it is used of the holy angels in heaven (e.g., 12:2-3, 20:1).

Daniel 4:

 

חָזֵ֥ה הֲוֵ֛ית בְּחֶזְוֵ֥י רֵאשִׁ֖י עַֽל־מִשְׁכְּבִ֑י וַאֲלוּ֙ עִ֣יר וְקַדִּ֔ישׁ מִן־שְׁמַיָּ֖א נָחִֽת׃

In the vision of my mind in bed, I looked and saw a holy Watcher coming down from heaven.

 

בִּגְזֵרַ֤ת עִירִין֙ פִּתְגָמָ֔א וּמֵאמַ֥ר קַדִּישִׁ֖ין שְׁאֵֽלְתָ֑א עַד־דִּבְרַ֡ת דִּ֣י יִנְדְּע֣וּן חַ֠יַּיָּ֠א דִּֽי־שַׁלִּ֨יט (עליא) [עִלָּאָ֜ה] בְּמַלְכ֣וּת (אנושא) [אֲנָשָׁ֗א] וּלְמַן־דִּ֤י יִצְבֵּא֙ יִתְּנִנַּ֔הּ וּשְׁפַ֥ל אֲנָשִׁ֖ים יְקִ֥ים (עליה) [עֲלַֽהּ]׃

This sentence is decreed by the Watchers;
This verdict is commanded by the Holy Ones
So that all creatures may know
That the Most High is sovereign over the realm of man,
And He gives it to whom He wishes
And He may set over it even the lowest of men.’

 

וְדִ֣י חֲזָ֣ה מַלְכָּ֡א עִ֣יר וְקַדִּ֣ישׁ נָחִ֣ת ׀ מִן־שְׁמַיָּ֡א וְאָמַר֩ גֹּ֨דּוּ אִֽילָנָ֜א וְחַבְּל֗וּהִי בְּרַ֨ם עִקַּ֤ר שׇׁרְשׁ֙וֹהִי֙ בְּאַרְעָ֣א שְׁבֻ֔קוּ וּבֶאֱסוּר֙ דִּֽי־פַרְזֶ֣ל וּנְחָ֔שׁ בְּדִתְאָ֖א דִּ֣י בָרָ֑א וּבְטַ֧ל שְׁמַיָּ֣א יִצְטַבַּ֗ע וְעִם־חֵיוַ֤ת בָּרָא֙ חֲלָקֵ֔הּ עַ֛ד דִּֽי־שִׁבְעָ֥ה עִדָּנִ֖ין יַחְלְפ֥וּן עֲלֽוֹהִי׃

The holy Watcher whom the king saw descend from heaven and say,
Hew down the tree and destroy it,
But leave the stump with its roots in the ground.
In fetters of iron and bronze
In the grass of the field,
Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven,
And share the lot of the beasts of the field
Until seven seasons pass over him—

 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by LiveWire

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

Yea I know but the other post is the one I thought you where say your comfortable with contradictions.

I never said that.  In fact, I've repeatedly noted that I totally reject any Scripture being in contradiction with any other Scripture.  

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

Though I wouldn't deem them contradictions just deeper meaning. I'm sure in the bible that this generation can grasp somethings and for tomorrow's generation.

lol.  A contradiction is a contradiction.  

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

Knowledge of the Bible has increased since it's conception.

The Bible wasn't conceived.  I don't know where you get your "facts".

Knowledge of the Bible is unique to every believer.  Some have increased their knowledge of the Bible through diligent study, while others never open it up.  They just listen to others tell them what it says.  Like the universe and earth are 6,000 years old.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

So there was a man left.  Weren't there a few men left?  And weren't there others who came from other places?

I don't know how many survived the besieging.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 If there were vineyards then it wouldn't be 'tohu' and a wilderness, would it?

You are the one who always says something about "it is written".  And Jer 4 is very clear about what tohu means.  Total destruction.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

  And if there were vineyards there would be 'sunlight', right?  And if there were people like Governers assigned to it and Jeremiah still there, it wouldn't desolate, would it?

The Bible says uninhabitable (wabohu).

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

PLEASE, tell me how does one overcome, reconcile or dispose of all these 'conflicts'.  Is there some other BOOK or other verses somewhere that tell 'this is speaking to the fall of Jerusalem', skip all those conflicts...

I see no conflict at all.  Jer 4 doesn't need other books to explain it.  It describes "the land", meaning Israel, which would include Jerusalem.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

"without form and void" is a pitiful translation, given what the rest of the passage says about what happened.

what invading army can cause a land to be "without form".  How does that even make any sense?  It doesn't.  Nor does that translation in Gen 1:2 make any sense since ALL objects HAVE form.  

[FreeGrace]

17 minutes ago, LiveWire said:

הַזְכִּ֣ירוּ לַגּוֹיִ֗ם הִנֵּה֙ הַשְׁמִ֣יעוּ עַל־יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם נֹצְרִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים מֵאֶ֣רֶץ הַמֶּרְחָ֑ק וַֽיִּתְּנ֛וּ עַל־עָרֵ֥י יְהוּדָ֖ה קוֹלָֽם׃

Tell the nations: Here they are!
Announce concerning Jerusalem:
Watchers are coming from a distant land,
They raise their voices against the towns of Judah.

^

Watchers, is an Enochian term they used between periods of king Solomon's Temple and 2nd Temple referring to Deuteronomy and Psalms and Genesis 6 speaking about ANGELS that rebelled against God.

מֵעַ֣י ׀ מֵעַ֨י ׀ (אחולה) [אֹחִ֜ילָה] קִיר֥וֹת לִבִּ֛י הֹמֶה־לִּ֥י לִבִּ֖י לֹ֣א אַחֲרִ֑שׁ כִּ֣י ק֤וֹל שׁוֹפָר֙ (שמעתי) [שָׁמַ֣עַתְּ] נַפְשִׁ֔י תְּרוּעַ֖ת מִלְחָמָֽה׃

Oh, my suffering, my suffering!
How I writhe!
Oh, the walls of my heart!
My heart moans within me,
I cannot be silent;
For I hear the blare of horns,
Alarms of war.

^

Still concern over the rebellion of the Watchers.

עַד־מָתַ֖י אֶרְאֶה־נֵּ֑ס אֶשְׁמְעָ֖ה ק֥וֹל שׁוֹפָֽר׃ {פ}

How long must I see standards
And hear the blare of horns?

^

still nothing about a human army whatsoever.

The term “Watchers,” meaning “wakeful ones” (Aramaic ןיריע), glossed as “sons of Heaven” in 1 En. 6:2, refers to a class of angels, mentioned also in the Bible in Dan. 4:10, 14, 20.¹ Even within the Book of the Watchers it is used of the holy angels in heaven (e.g., 12:2-3, 20:1).

I have no idea what point is being made, if any.  

[LiveWire]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I have no idea what point is being made, if any.  

You said to examine Verses 16, 19, 21 and I posted them for you.

[DeighAnn]

58 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I see no conflict at all.  Jer 4 doesn't need other books to explain it.  It describes "the land", meaning Israel, which would include Jerusalem.

AM I confusing you with another poster? 

 Did you say you believed 4:19 on was about the AFTERMATH of the fall of Jerusalem or not?  

IF you said you BELIEVED it was then HOW does 'NO MAN, NO FRUITFUL, NO LIGHT, TOHU'

NOT find conflict with 

38
28So Jeremiah abode in the court of the prison until the day that Jerusalem was taken: and he was there when Jerusalem was taken.

39
10But Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard left of the poor of the people, which had nothing, in the land of Judah, and gave them vineyards and fields at the same time.

11Now Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon gave charge concerning Jeremiah to Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard, saying,

12Take him, and look well to him, and do him no harm; but do unto him even as he shall say unto thee.

13So Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard sent, and Nebushasban, Rabsaris, and Nergalsharezer, Rabmag, and all the king of Babylon's princes;

14Even they sent, and took Jeremiah out of the court of the prison, and committed him unto Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, that he should carry him home: so he dwelt among the people.

 

40
2And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place.

3Now the LORD hath brought it, and done according as he hath said: because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed his voice, therefore this thing is come upon you.

4And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains which were upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land is before thee: whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go, thither go.

5Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go.

6Then went Jeremiah unto Gedaliah the son of Ahikam to Mizpah; and dwelt with him among the people that were left in the land.


EITHER there WAS NO MAN or there was

EITHER there WAS NO FRUIT or there was

EITHER there was light or ther wasn't

EITHER the mountains trembled or they didn't

EITHER it was at the FIERCE ANGER of the Lord or it was by men

Because I CAN'T say, at least not with a forked tongue 

It was sudden but took awhile

There was no man but there were men.

The fruitful place had become a wilderness although it still had fruit.  

The whole place was desolate and waste EXCEPT FOR the people living there, and the government that had been placed, and the land was in mourning except for the vines the sunshining and new people coming in....you get the idea.

If it wasn't you then hopefully whoever it was, will reply and if so, I apologize for the mix up. Either way, I understand the truth of it most likely it won't be addressed either way...these things tend to get pushed aside in favor of the same old things. 




 

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I never said that.  In fact, I've repeatedly noted that I totally reject any Scripture being in contradiction with any other Scripture.  

lol.  A contradiction is a contradiction.  

The Bible wasn't conceived.  I don't know where you get your "facts".

Knowledge of the Bible is unique to every believer.  Some have increased their knowledge of the Bible through diligent study, while others never open it up.  They just listen to others tell them what it says.  Like the universe and earth are 6,000 years old.

I wasn't referring to the definition of conception as childbirth.

But the forming, origin, the Genesis of scripture.

Once it was just the old testament then the new testament then chapter and verse numbering system in 1500's.

I use to think that the numbering system wasn't supposed to be part of the Bible but I no longer believe that, they're for reasons.

That has caused a uniqueness in the bible that speaks to individuals.

with the numbering system the accounts have accounts within them, cross referencing greatly increases and some accounts formed with just a few verses across all the chapters in the bible  

The young earth theory is derived from counting the generations to the present.

My question is, where in the bible doesn't it say to count and use them to know age of the heavens and earth.

Edited July 8, 2023 by BeyondET