Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[Tristen]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

No, you do not understand as that isn't even close to what I think or believe.   I believe there is ONE single truth to be found in Gods word.  The PATH is narrow.  We are not 'permitted' to add insert anything from outside of Scripture, we are NEVER to change the 'meaning' of the written text, though the meaning does 'change' from one level to the next as we mature while never becoming lesss true.  The miracle of Gods Written word, I am sure you have found that to be truth. 

I believe we are especially NOT to try and change it with the use of 'grammar' and dissection of words, though I am not against using them when after precept on precept....could use a bit more clarification, (never the other way around which seems to be the way of the day both now as it was back then) no matter how they make it seem so HOLY and right to do so because in fact,  it is the easiest way to change what is actually written to help one follow a tradition already established and held.  

Can you find anywhere it is written we are to get MORE INTO THE LETTER of what is written?  I can't.  So WHY all the dissection?  Why all the grammar?  Common sense reading as a child would not good enough anymore?  Doesn't seem to be.  And look at where it has lead, for some, DEATH doesn't even mean death anymore, it means 'eternal torment'. 
I am sure you know we are to bring in THE NEW along with the old and we are to BUILD upon the foundation already laid.  And how are we told that is accomplished?  PRECEPT on precept, verse by verse.... and


Here a little, there a little.  Maybe I am not understanding what that means.  What does it mean to you?

I am saying there are verses in the Bible that seem to come out of left field.  THOSE draw my attention, as I am sure they are supposed to, no different than the figures of speech employed for the same purpose.  Those verses I believe can be read 100 times and their true meaning never seen until we have 'matured' to some point that all of a sudden OUR EYES are opened and the puzzle pieces make a perfect fit.  Perfect in that they cause no conflict anywhere else in the words of God.  THAT is the TRUE test of its truth.  'Here a little' voiding out Gods word is never ok. 

I hope this clears it up.  Thoughts?

 

Who missed the Messiah?  Who took the words of God and made them say a whole bunch of things they didn't say?  The Scribes ect.  It was WRITTEN in their NATIVE TONGUE.  You KNOW they knew all the word definitions and the grammar better than any Christian today does (I am sure that is an exaggeration) yet THEY GOT IT WRONG. 

PROVING, at least as far as I am concerned, it isn't in the WORDS themselves but in the concepts the words put forth, the Spirit of Truth.   

Does this FIT into the discussion as you see it?  I don't know, all I can say is I go where I am led, and if that is 'off topic 'and going 'off topic' is an issue for you, I may not be the one to post back and forth with.  I will say, for the MOST part I do try.

But PLEASE, if you find this to be an issue, let's peacefully end the conversation, as I hate to feel I am being policed and/or graded about HOW it is done RATHER than the information actually put forth, because it robs me of my peace, and I love my peace. 

If I read that completely wrong because I AM too sensitive and just jumping the gun, apologies to you and just take it like water off a ducks back.   Thank you.

 

 

“…

I hope this clears it up.  Thoughts?”

I am sincerely struggling to understand your position. It seems like we agree on some things, but then other statements cause me to doubt if I understood what you meant when I thought we agreed.

The reason I am engaging with this thread is because I consider it dangerous for a Christian to suppose the right to take scripture, and to change the meaning of the written text so that it agrees with an extra-Biblical idea. That is what I see happening in the premise of the defense of Gap Theory. That is, the attempt to “reconcile” the Bible to a secular narrative; i.e. According to the Title of this thread, “Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years”. This means, trying to make the Bible fit an external idea. That’s a problem.

 

“Who missed the Messiah?  Who took the words of God and made them say a whole bunch of things they didn't say?  The Scribes ect.  It was WRITTEN in their NATIVE TONGUE.  You KNOW they knew all the word definitions and the grammar better than any Christian today does (I am sure that is an exaggeration) yet THEY GOT IT WRONG”

If you are saying they gave more credence to their own ideas than to the written text of scripture, and therefore “THEY GOT IT WRONG”, I agree.

 

“PROVING, at least as far as I am concerned, it isn't in the WORDS themselves but in the concepts the words put forth, the Spirit of Truth”

Here is where it becomes confusing for me. The obvious solution is to give more weight of authority to the written text of scripture, than to any external ideas. Not to drift further away from the “WORDS”.

The Word of God is the standard against which all other ideas and spiritual communications are tested. The Word of God is the highest communicative authority of God’s message to humanity.

Yes – the Holy Spirit gives us revelation, but the Holy Spirit is in absolute agreement with the Word of God. And yes, that revelation can be built on previous knowledge. But if you find your spiritual communication contradicts the Bible (as written), then that communication is not from the Holy Spirit.

 

“Does this FIT into the discussion as you see it?  I don't know, all I can say is I go where I am led, and if that is 'off topic 'and going 'off topic' is an issue for you, I may not be the one to post back and forth with.  I will say, for the MOST part I do try. But PLEASE, if you find this to be an issue, let's peacefully end the conversation, as I hate to feel I am being policed and/or graded about HOW it is done RATHER than the information actually put forth, because it robs me of my peace, and I love my peace. If I read that completely wrong because I AM too sensitive and just jumping the gun, apologies to you and just take it like water off a ducks back.   Thank you.”

I assume that, if I am not following your argument, I am permitted to say so – and if you deem your point important enough, you are free to provide clarification. That’s all this was.

 

 

[Vine Abider]

42 minutes ago, Tristen said:

 

The question remains – Are you comfortable making wholesale changes to the plain meaning of the text based on;

1) It being technically possible to change the meaning of any written communication by inserting unstated information between sentences, and/or

2) Some vague appeal to the rules of “Hebrew poetry” and “Hebrew grammar”, and/or

3) Some person, whose credentials you respect, said it was ok?

Consider my perspective - I could use the same methodology to change the meaning of literally any scripture - if I decided I was uncomfortable with the plain meaning of the text. I’m sure you can understand why I find this approach to interpreting scripture to be particularly concerning.

Furthermore, the more we delve into the issue, the more it seems that nothing in Genesis 1 means what it actually says; E.g. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” is apparently not referring to the creation of the natural universe, but rather “the beginning of man and his environment”, And “the earth was without form” actually means “the form (or structure) of the earth became destroyed after the sinful corruption of some pre-Adamic race of humans”. There’s even a suggestion in this thread that we get to presume the right to reorder what God has written till it suits our sensibilities.

 

You say, “No text is inserted”

But external ideas are unquestionably being “inserted” between the “text”. The following is how I am seeing the issue.

- The scripture has been translated (presumably by “Hebrew scholars”) to read;

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void” (Genesis 1:1-2, NKJV)

- My YEC interpretation would paraphrase this as;

“God created the natural universe (including space and time) out of His eternity. At that early stage, God had not yet finished forming or filling the earth.”

- The long-ages interpretation seems to be;

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth [around 13.6 and 3.9 billion years ago respectively. Then, God created life on the earth and evolved it over the next 3-or-so billion years, including into humans, who sinned and corrupted the earth – leading somehow to its ultimate destruction – and leaving the earth in a state of being] disheveled and empty. And therefore, everything else we read in Genesis 1 is a description of God starting over.”

And this is me trying to be concise.

It is therefore self-evident that this paradigm requires inserting a mass of speculated information between Biblical sentences for the explicit purpose of disavowing the most obvious, most straight-forward, meaning of the text. To suggest otherwise seems dishonest.

 

SUBSEQUENT POST

“I like this thought experiment you started here. There may be a grammatically correct Hebrew translation that allows the reordering of day details. This is Hebrew poetry, not English poetry.”

If there is an argument that possibly permits the “reordering of day details”, then I will gladly consider and scrutinize it. But simply claiming it to be “Hebrew poetry” is nowhere near good enough.

My original “thought experiment” asked if we would permit ourselves the right to insert information between sentences to change the meaning of scripture in any other Biblical context (i.e. beyond Genesis). So far, no one has shown any willingness to even consider the implications of that question.

 

Okay, now we know each other's opinions - thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Vine Abider

[Guest]

20 hours ago, BeyondET said:

That's is true I don't know who his audience is, as you mentioned his speaking in a general way some may understand who knows.

I would think they'd understand day and night separated as like a supernova of a star and the black hole that is left. Interesting enough there's a new black hole that forms every second in the universe, so is the massive star that supernovae

My wife is self-educated with respect to the science and medical fields. She suspected that there was a black hole at the center or every galaxy before it was widely proclaimed by astrophysicists.

Its not known what the people the Bible was written to understood. We know that Daniel's audience was intelligent, but we are still learning from his writings centuries later. The same could be said of many of the OT writers.

I don't know if it is in one of the links I referenced from one of Dr. Heiser's university lectures. But what he explains is the big difference between Jewish poetry and English poetry. He also explains Hebrew grammar. He believes the KJV is a great translation as is the ESV. In places, the translators were translating from English materials that they had available. Jewish Publication Society is now available to people who use commentaries who may actually get closer to the original intent of the Biblical authors. When I first read through the KJV Dake Bible I had, I had a two volume Unger's OT Bible Commentary to reference concurrently to keep me from accepting some of Dake's errors.

Sorry, I'm drifting.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Tristen said:

The question remains – Are you comfortable making wholesale changes to the plain meaning of the text based on;

1) It being technically possible to change the meaning of any written communication by inserting unstated information between sentences, and/or

2) Some vague appeal to the rules of “Hebrew poetry” and “Hebrew grammar”, and/or

3) Some person, whose credentials you respect, said it was ok?

No. The rules of the Hebrew language, grammar and poetry are important to me especially when it comes from someone the credentials

3 hours ago, Tristen said:

Consider my perspective - I could use the same methodology to change the meaning of literally any scripture - if I decided I was uncomfortable with the plain meaning of the text. I’m sure you can understand why I find this approach to interpreting scripture to be particularly concerning.

Actually no. You have no credentials so your methodology would be heretical.

3 hours ago, Tristen said:

Furthermore, the more we delve into the issue, the more it seems that nothing in Genesis 1 means what it actually says; E.g. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” is apparently not referring to the creation of the natural universe, but rather “the beginning of man and his environment”, And “the earth was without form” actually means “the form (or structure) of the earth became destroyed after the sinful corruption of some pre-Adamic race of humans”. There’s even a suggestion in this thread that we get to presume the right to reorder what God has written till it suits our sensibilities.

I'm just using what the Jewish Publication Society would say based on Biblical scholarship.

Pre-Adamic race of humans is outside the written Biblical text. You can speculate all you want.

3 hours ago, Tristen said:

You say, “No text is inserted”

But external ideas are unquestionably being “inserted” between the “text”. The following is how I am seeing the issue.

- The scripture has been translated (presumably by “Hebrew scholars”) to read;

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void” (Genesis 1:1-2, NKJV)

The Hebrew scholars you are referring to, what are their bona fides and where can I read their opinions? Because the KJV on which the NKJV is based on does not use any of the new manuscripts found at Qumran. Are you saying the KJV does not have any errors?

3 hours ago, Tristen said:

- My YEC interpretation would paraphrase this as;

“God created the natural universe (including space and time) out of His eternity. At that early stage, God had not yet finished forming or filling the earth.”

- The long-ages interpretation seems to be;

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth [around 13.6 and 3.9 billion years ago respectively. Then, God created life on the earth and evolved it over the next 3-or-so billion years, including into humans, who sinned and corrupted the earth – leading somehow to its ultimate destruction – and leaving the earth in a state of being] disheveled and empty. And therefore, everything else we read in Genesis 1 is a description of God starting over.”

And this is me trying to be concise.

That is not how I see Genesis 1.

3 hours ago, Tristen said:

It is therefore self-evident that this paradigm requires inserting a mass of speculated information between Biblical sentences for the explicit purpose of disavowing the most obvious, most straight-forward, meaning of the text. To suggest otherwise seems dishonest.

SUBSEQUENT POST

“I like this thought experiment you started here. There may be a grammatically correct Hebrew translation that allows the reordering of day details. This is Hebrew poetry, not English poetry.”

If there is an argument that possibly permits the “reordering of day details”, then I will gladly consider and scrutinize it. But simply claiming it to be “Hebrew poetry” is nowhere near good enough.

Fine.

3 hours ago, Tristen said:

My original “thought experiment” asked if we would permit ourselves the right to insert information between sentences to change the meaning of scripture in any other Biblical context (i.e. beyond Genesis). So far, no one has shown any willingness to even consider the implications of that question.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Okay, now we know each other's opinions - thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Let's use the Ruin-Reconstruction Theory instead of the more common Gap Theory. What if we take as that understanding and just insert it before Genesis 1:1, some proponents actually do this. It still needs to straighten out the Hebrew grammar and poetry. To understand what happened we'd have to study Psalm 82, Psalm 89, Job, Peter, Jude and the Divine Council.

[Guest]

On 12/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, DeighAnn said:

If I said or implied it was, my apologies, it was not my intent as it is not my belief.

I believe I said the book of Daniel was.  It wasn't that EVERYONE couldn't READ it, the SAME WORDS have always been right there same as today, 
but the Holy Spirit either wasn't yet available or wasn't yet leading us in the Spirit of truth concerning them as He is now. 

Yes.

On 12/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, DeighAnn said:

I believe it also is the 'bare grain' that is 'produced' when this natural body is sown.

Okay.

On 12/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, DeighAnn said:

I don't watch utube videos but if they work for you and your understanding, then all I can say is 'good for you'.  God works in all of us in different ways for His purposes so however we get there is not my place to judge.

Well, besides Heiser's Classroom lectures on YouTube, he writes a lot of books.

On 12/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, DeighAnn said:

Heb 12
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Not going to argue against scripture, but I don't see how this applies.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Saved.One.by.Grace

[BeyondET]

7 hours ago, Tristen said:

 

“I find it as simple as knowing the order of days is not in order for a reason”

What is the “reason”? Why did God tell us the events happened in one order, if they really happened in a different order? Is the Bible wrong? Is God lying to us? Did God not preserve the correct order of events? What gives you the right, or authority, to make this determination?

 

“Days are 1,2,4,3,5,6 I know it takes quite alot of faith to believe such things, that is probably why I am the only one who will take the leap or at least among a very few possibly”

True “faith” is trusting that God has preserved His Word as He intended. Pseudo “faith” is presuming the right to reorder God’s Word. Especially given that the presented narrative is perfectly plausible and logically consistent with established knowledge (as I demonstrated in my previous post to you).

 

“when the days are read in that order there is no questioning on how plants grow without sunlight, or a need to explain how it can happen”

So you get to just change God’s Word because you don’t like how God wrote it?

In my previous post to you, I gave you three reasons why there is no “need to explain how it can happen”, given the existing, written order. Therefore, you are presuming the right to change God’s Word for no reason. Why would you resort to such a drastic, and dangerous, hermeneutical approach when it is completely unnecessary?

 

Actually I don't change a single word of Genesis, in that particular passages I don't follow the verse and chapter number arrangement. who is it to know those additions was ordered by God do you know?, who gives you authority to know those additions to the word of God was  inspired to do so??? For hundreds of years someone always has a new and improved version. Am I to trust every one of them, even the early ones.

I believe some things are pretty straight forward in the bible doesn't take much faith to believe them to be correct and other things take alot of faith. One example is the four gospels it's like 52 pick up nothing is in order.

Not only do I read the days of Genesis as 1,2,4,3,5,6 the chapters as well in that order.

I don't have to wonder how plants grow without sun and God didn't create plants fully developed. God said let the earth bring forth vegetation not go and plant on earth. though He did plant a garden after the earth did its thing.

 

When God called the expanse sky He didn't stop creating the expanse and skip a day only to go back and put lights in it on day four, nor did He plant some grass than the next day create a nuclear reactor to supply it energy. There's order when God creates He doesn't jump around from day to day.

FYI verse 15 He made the stars as well the other planets once called wondering stars because they are the only stars that move, ancient people had no knowledge of other planets.

You need to read verse 11 again because fully developed plants didn't just pop up out of the ground.

 

Genesis 1

6And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.” 7So God made the expanse and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. And it was so.

8God called the expanse “sky.”And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

The Third Day

14And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to distinguish between the day and the night, and let them be signs to mark the seasons and days and years.

15And let them serve as lights in the expanse of the sky to shine upon the earth.” And it was so. 16God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well.

17God set these lights in the expanse of the sky to shine upon the earth, 18to preside over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

13And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

The Fourth Day

9And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. 10God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. 12The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

19And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Edited December 17, 2022 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

4 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

My wife is self-educated with respect to the science and medical fields. She suspected that there was a black hole at the center or every galaxy before it was widely proclaimed by astrophysicists.

Its not known what the people the Bible was written to understood. We know that Daniel's audience was intelligent, but we are still learning from his writings centuries later. The same could be said of many of the OT writers.

I don't know if it is in one of the links I referenced from one of Dr. Heiser's university lectures. But what he explains is the big difference between Jewish poetry and English poetry. He also explains Hebrew grammar. He believes the KJV is a great translation as is the ESV. In places, the translators were translating from English materials that they had available. Jewish Publication Society is now available to people who use commentaries who may actually get closer to the original intent of the Biblical authors. When I first read through the KJV Dake Bible I had, I had a two volume Unger's OT Bible Commentary to reference concurrently to keep me from accepting some of Dake's errors.

Sorry, I'm drifting.

I think the bible is written in such away no matter how intelligent a person is understanding it can be understood on many levels of intelligence even those that man has not reached yet.

If God knows every star by name, He certainly can know where every atom that constitute earth was in the beginning even if some of those atoms were not even formed yet. Whirling around a galaxy within an expansion arm nonetheless He called earth regardless if the heavens was first.

I like the KJV the Cambridge edition I have on my iPad. An old one by James Murdock the Peshitta. And a resent one, The New Heart English Bible a pretty good one imo, translated from alot of the original writings. I like that the author totally gives it away. Cost nothing to download and its free domain, no copyrights.

Edited December 17, 2022 by BeyondET

[DeighAnn]

On 12/15/2022 at 12:24 AM, Tristen said:

The verses tell us that God brought the earth into existence before He formed and filled it.

After God initially created the earth, but before He molded and filled it, “the earth was without form, and void”; probably a formless mass of land covered with water.

Which verses tell us He brought it into existence un molded, in chaos and in darkness? 

Would that have sounded like 'I BRING together a bunch of elements to hang out in the dark as nothingness and void till I get ready to form it? 

Not sure WHY God wouldn't just speak its 'existence' 'in wonder', but can't wait to see what words He used Himself


1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

What meaning do you see this as having?

[BeyondET]

46 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Which verses tell us He brought it into existence un molded, in chaos and in darkness? 

Would that have sounded like 'I BRING together a bunch of elements to hang out in the dark as nothingness and void till I get ready to form it? 

Not sure WHY God wouldn't just speak its 'existence' 'in wonder', but can't wait to see what words He used Himself


1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

What meaning do you see this as having?

I've wondered about that myself why not like instant oatmeal or something I do completely believe its possible. But if God lives an infinite life why would He create so fast. I would assume there would be much joy in watching a blade of grass grow than a presto planet. then again that long of a life creating for a 13 billion years span would be vastly less than a blink of an eye.

The verse is interesting is that heaven or heavens or are they both the same?

Edited December 17, 2022 by BeyondET