The Light

[Vine Abider]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:20 PM, kenny2212 said:

Yes, I would say so.

That's pretty remarkable!  But the Anointing can show us things that are amazing to us and certainly not our own thoughts!

Edited December 27, 2022 by Vine Abider

[AdHoc]

On 12/26/2022 at 4:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

Your last verse in your reply to me stated God created the Earth and it was habitable as soon as He created it so therefore I placed you in the young earth camp because once any planet is formed it has to be fire hot for many, many years !! I mean many, many many.

The earth had a couple of ‘mishaps’ early on, first it was hot when it was formed 4.5-ish billion years ago, then it got hit by a Mars-sized rock that melted it again (and created the moon), and once that was sorted and the Earth had somewhat cooled down it got hit by a 700 million year phase of ‘late heavy bombardment’ by smaller space rocks that melted most of the crust AGAIN.

But then it cooled and somewhere around 3.8 bn years ago it was cool enough to get single-celled in just 20 million years (then it took an additional 3.2 billion years to get multi-cellular life). So, in other words, God started creating the animals about 600 million years ago. So, it basically took almost 4 billion years for the earth to be habitable enough for multi-celled animals/creatures. 

Well, I don't think you mean chaos from mankind who were only created 6000 or so years ago, my guess is you mean the rock (now the moon) colliding with earth etc. etc. I think the water was always here, God referenced it in the first three verses. 

It is called Science brother. We have what are called CONSTANTS, like the Speed of Light etc. These are Gods Laws of Nature. He created them and God is orderly, He doesn't change thigs up in order to deceive us. We can and do know how far things are away from us be determining that info via the Speed of Light times the distance which gives us the answer how far away a star is. Thus we can and do know its age. 

 

God created man 6000 years ago, what happened before that is not that relevant unless you want to get into the 6 days of creation, which I have pegged via timelines. God does say what He sys, he said YOWM, not day, that is the whole point. 

 

Okay. I respect your beliefs. Thanks for the exchange of ideas and God bless.

[Dennis1209]

On 12/25/2022 at 6:07 PM, AdHoc said:

I thank you for taking the time to answer and explain your point of view. I read it through twice and am sure you have missed two crucial points. You may not have, but I can say for sure you did not allude to them in your reply.

1. The first point is that the thread does not make a claim that the universe was created in 7 days. If you read the first contributions it should be clear that many readers understand that creation was accomplished at some undetermined time on the past. How long it continued in God's order is not given. Then a time of rebellion took place, which plunged the earth into chaos. God, not tolerating this festering sight, covered it with water. How long God's dealings took is not given. Then followed a time of the earth remaining under water and in darkness. This could cover millions of years, but (i) it is not said, and (ii) no beings were there to record it, and (iii) if they did, their records were not preserved. Most students who consider this time attribute the rebellion to that of the previous governor, Lucifer. They refer you to Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. The time it took for all this is not given, but it leaves enough time for any imagination. I say "imagination" because that is what it is. If God wanted me to know what awful things were perpetrated then, He would have left proof in His Word. He didn't. So 4.5 billion years is pure speculation.

Science is the formulating of what we can observe. There is no way to observe what happened. And there is no way to calculate when it happened. But just the figure of 4.5 billion makes it suspect. Science should be able to calculate to at least the year. I would have expected 4.57697089192837 billion years from a scientist.

2. The second piece of information I would have expected, seeing as you went to great an effort to define the day, was the use of the words "bara", "asah" and "yatsar". The use of these words show that God CREATED (bara) out of nothing, the heavens and the earth. From verse 2 God never uses the word "bara" again until the living creatures are created. God uses "asah" which means to "MAKE out of existing materials". Then, in Chapter 2 God "FORMED" man's body from clay ("yatsar"). That is, from Genesis 1:2 onward, God did not CREATE (except the living creatures). What God did was "MAKE" already existing light to shine, to MAKE grass to appear and to MAKE the sun and moon in their places. The notion that God created the universe in 7 (or 6) days is incorrect. What God did in 6 days was RESTORE the earth to a condition habitable to man. This fact reinforces the idea that the earth is much older than 6,000 years. But it gives no information exactly how old.

As to the WMAP, you said it used microwave technology. I am told by scientists that microwaves travel at 3.00 x 10 to the power of 8 in a vacuum - the same as the speed of light. I am also told by these same scientists that the universe is 94 billion light years across. So if the earth was in the dead center of the universe, a microwave that is used like radar would take 47 billion light years to reach the fringe and another 47 billion light years to return to source for mapping. But Percy Spencer only discovered the microwave in 1945 and WMAP only started measuring in 2010. Please explain?

I propose that God meant what He said. That He restored a chaotic earth, that had been around for a while. Because He is ALL-mighty, He could easily do this in 6 solar days. The Bible is written in a structure of sevens - called Heptadic structure. The times recorded in the Bible are to be taken as literal except some prophecy, and if so used, we find that man is 6,000 years old. If God ushers in His Kingdom this century, He will have recovered the earth and have in under the rule of a Man in SEVEN thousand years. In accordance with this, God calls the coming Kingdom a Sabbath Rest in Hebrews 3 and 4. I further propose that whenever science is contrary to the Bible, it is no longer science - but a contrary religion. I say "religion" because it takes a lot of faith to believe what cannot be.

I thought about posting my notes that are pretty much in agreement with your view. But it would be the longest thread in Worthy history. (you are welcome 😊)

Pertaining to this topic and the six-day creation account. Something seems to be overlooked and seldom, if ever, brought up. Everything seems to be described and accounted for except for one thing:

·         When and how was water created?

The only plausible answer my feeble gray matter can conjecture, it must have pre-existed  Genesis 1:2.

[AdHoc]

3 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I thought about posting my notes that are pretty much in agreement with your view. But it would be the longest thread in Worthy history. (you are welcome 😊)

Pertaining to this topic and the six-day creation account. Something seems to be overlooked and seldom, if ever, brought up. Everything seems to be described and accounted for except for one thing:

·         When and how was water created?

The only plausible answer my feeble gray matter can conjecture, it must have pre-existed  Genesis 1:2.

Yeah, sure. Your gray matter is working fine. In verse 1 all was created. My point #2 should have alluded to that. What is interesting is that God must have created the universe in stages. In Job 38 the angels rejoiced when God laid the foundations of the earth. As the Bible shows, God always sees to a House for His servants (David and Solomon). So the order of creation, all contained in verse 1 is;
Heaven first
The angels who dwell in heaven
The earth
Maybe a pre-Adamic race from which come the demons (note, "maybe")
Lucifer's rebellion and subsequent covering with water
Undisclosed time of darkness
Restoration of the earth in 6 solar days
Man created

[Dennis1209]

58 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Maybe a pre-Adamic race from which come the demons (note, "maybe")

Possibly.

Some demons may have originated from that far back; I do not know. They are bodiless spirits seeking flesh to indwell as if they once had bodies and lusts of the flesh. But…

Unless you can direct me to something I have missed, I have found no mention or instances in the Bible of possession, unclean or evil spirits, or devils before Noah’s flood. The lowest rung in the evil spiritual hierarchy is not to be confused with the Watchers (fallen angels) and their offspring.

It appears that there were more demons before and during Jesus’s time walking the earth than Carter had liver pills.

The worst offenders of fallen angels and some demons appear to be chained in gloomy darkness until the bottomless pit is opened in the tribulation.

Taking Genesis 6:1-4, Jude 6, and other ancient literature literally, Nephilim being part human and part angelic when they died, where did their spirits go?

Speaking of humanity:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[kenny2212]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

That's pretty remarkable!  But the Anointing can show us things that are amazing to us and certainly not our own thoughts!

Thank you Vine Abider.

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Possibly.

Some demons may have originated from that far back; I do not know. They are bodiless spirits seeking flesh to indwell as if they once had bodies and lusts of the flesh. But…

Unless you can direct me to something I have missed, I have found no mention or instances in the Bible of possession, unclean or evil spirits, or devils before Noah’s flood. The lowest rung in the evil spiritual hierarchy is not to be confused with the Watchers (fallen angels) and their offspring.

It appears that there were more demons before and during Jesus’s time walking the earth than Carter had liver pills.

The worst offenders of fallen angels and some demons appear to be chained in gloomy darkness until the bottomless pit is opened in the tribulation.

Taking Genesis 6:1-4, Jude 6, and other ancient literature literally, Nephilim being part human and part angelic when they died, where did their spirits go?

Speaking of humanity:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Yes. The demons present us with a problem. They are obviously empowered to enter a body, so they are a risk for men. We should know about them, them being potential enemies. But the Lord has kept mostly silent about them. I understand the following, but on very precarious proof;
The demon origin is not recorded, but...
- Called "familiar spirits" in the Old Testament they could have been around to see Adam created and are "familiar" with a man's past
- It would seem that God has cast a fence around men where angels and demons cannot interfere with them, unless men actively seek them
- Demons are superior to men
- Since demons are disembodied, they suffer in "dry" places when not in a man or animal.
- Their dwelling place is the sea. Their "torment" will come at the White Throne as the New Earth has no sea. "the sea gives up the dead" I judge to be the demons.
- The ability to cast out a demon is a "sign" of a Christian (Mk.16:17) as it needs God's "finger" to do it (Lk.11:12)
- Demons seem to create chaotic behavior in man or animals, but could be subtle
- Demons are under the command of Satan and probably belong to the principalities.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. The demons present us with a problem. They are obviously empowered to enter a body, so they are a risk for men. We should know about them, them being potential enemies. But the Lord has kept mostly silent about them. I understand the following, but on very precarious proof;
The demon origin is not recorded, but...
- Called "familiar spirits" in the Old Testament they could have been around to see Adam created and are "familiar" with a man's past
- It would seem that God has cast a fence around men where angels and demons cannot interfere with them, unless men actively seek them
- Demons are superior to men
- Since demons are disembodied, they suffer in "dry" places when not in a man or animal.
- Their dwelling place is the sea. Their "torment" will come at the White Throne as the New Earth has no sea. "the sea gives up the dead" I judge to be the demons.
- The ability to cast out a demon is a "sign" of a Christian (Mk.16:17) as it needs God's "finger" to do it (Lk.11:12)
- Demons seem to create chaotic behavior in man or animals, but could be subtle
- Demons are under the command of Satan and probably belong to the principalities.

The Bible has much to say about the enemy, demons in particular. If they plagued humanity after the fall of Adam, you would think it would have been recorded in Genesis.

As I mentioned, unclean & evil spirits, devils, familiar spirits, enchanters, and wizards suddenly show up after Noah’s flood. That leads me to speculate on logical conclusions, such as hybrids and the reason to destroy everything with the breath of life.

As it was in the days of Noe… Are hybrids (transhumanism) being tinkered with and created today? I answered and documented that fact in another thread, and the "kind" barrier.

Sometimes it is challenging to distinguish literal from metaphor in scripture. I, too, have wondered about “the sea gave up its dead” and “no more sea” for a long time. I once thought the people who perished at sea and the oceans would evaporate.

But as you, with many studies, I am not convinced that view is accurate. The sea (abyss) represents a place that is uninhabitable, dangerous, chaotic, and called the deep. How would ancients have known the depths of the deep?

Matthew 8:32 seems to affirm that thought.

This literal worldview of Genesis 6:1-4 and what the ancient Jews thought through the early church and believed, combined with the events of the Bible. Showing no mercy to certain tribes and being commanded to kill every man, woman, child, animal, and possession is telling (giant clans).

All the ancient literature of every culture simultaneously describes and believes in demi-gods, giants, and Titians cannot be a coincidence and all myth.

Reading the Bible in this light makes much more sense seeing spiritual warfare taking place. A seed war as described in Genesis 3:15.

[AdHoc]

30 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

The Bible has much to say about the enemy, demons in particular. If they plagued humanity after the fall of Adam, you would think it would have been recorded in Genesis.

As I mentioned, unclean & evil spirits, devils, familiar spirits, enchanters, and wizards suddenly show up after Noah’s flood. That leads me to speculate on logical conclusions, such as hybrids and the reason to destroy everything with the breath of life.

As it was in the days of Noe… Are hybrids (transhumanism) being tinkered with and created today? I answered and documented that fact in another thread, and the "kind" barrier.

Sometimes it is challenging to distinguish literal from metaphor in scripture. I, too, have wondered about “the sea gave up its dead” and “no more sea” for a long time. I once thought the people who perished at sea and the oceans would evaporate.

But as you, with many studies, I am not convinced that view is accurate. The sea (abyss) represents a place that is uninhabitable, dangerous, chaotic, and called the deep. How would ancients have known the depths of the deep?

Matthew 8:32 seems to affirm that thought.

This literal worldview of Genesis 6:1-4 and what the ancient Jews thought through the early church and believed, combined with the events of the Bible. Showing no mercy to certain tribes and being commanded to kill every man, woman, child, animal, and possession is telling (giant clans).

All the ancient literature of every culture simultaneously describes and believes in demi-gods, giants, and Titians cannot be a coincidence and all myth.

Reading the Bible in this light makes much more sense seeing spiritual warfare taking place. A seed war as described in Genesis 3:15.

Agreed. The "spirit world" plays a large part in the Bible. It also plays a large part in the heathen's world - like Halloween. My grandson (11) is already asking me about Ouija Boards and such. His buddies at school are getting messages from the spirit world. When the chips are down and the ship is sinking, men who never opened their mouth in prayer start praying to a higher being. Those high in the occult are terrified of the spirits they propose to call up. The pentagramm from which they call to the spirits in the hexagramm usually has a circle round it to protect the caller from the spirit that comes. The corporate world is full of subliminal signs to the spirit world.

And yet, how many demon-possessed men and women have you met? How many angels have you met?