Pre-Adamic World: Fact or Fiction

[Retrobyter]

9 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I guess you are not aware of the development of the Hebrew language. The Hebrew language does not have vowels as originally developed. You are buying into the vowels being inserted over a period of centuries from 600 BC to 10th century AD. Anything to support your views right?

Shalom, Saved.One.by.Grace.

No, I'm quite aware. But you need to understand that the VOWELS have always been there in the pronunciation of the words, whether the vowel pointing is added or not. Vowel pointing is for students learning Hebrew and foreigners. That's not what I was talking about, anyway.

I was simply saying that the verb "raachaf," or if you prefer, "r-ch-f," "רחפ," or more specifically, "mrachefet," or "m-r-ch-f-t," "מרחפת," in the presence of this noun cannot be talking about "hovering," "brooding," or "fluttering," which all imply being stationary.

The word "ruwach," or if you prefer, "r-w-ch," "רוח," means the "wind," when used as a noun, and when used and pronounced as a verb, it means "to blow LIKE the wind!" That's not hard to understand, is it? It is DYNAMIC, not stationary!

[BeyondET]

1 minute ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Saved.One.by.Grace.

No, I'm quite aware. But you need to understand that the VOWELS have always been there in the pronunciation of the words, whether the vowel pointing is added or not. Vowel pointing is for students learning Hebrew and foreigners. That's not what I was talking about, anyway.

I was simply saying that the verb "raachaf," or if you prefer, "r-ch-f," "רחפ," or more specifically, "mrachefet," or "m-r-ch-f-t," "מרחפת," in the presence of this noun cannot be talking about "hovering," "brooding," or "fluttering," which all imply being stationary.

The word "ruwach," or if you prefer, "r-w-ch," "רוח," means the "wind," when used as a noun, and when used and pronounced as a verb, it means "to blow LIKE the wind!" That's not hard to understand, is it? It is DYNAMIC, not stationary!

What is wind what is its properties?

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Well since you mentioned they are differentiated post me some scripture.

I don't have an answer, but 1 Thessalonians 5:23 means a lot more to me because Paul was also a Jew. I only looked at it a few minutes ago. Genesis 35:18 states that the soul leaves the body at death. What the soul's function is arguable.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Oh, by the way, where did you get your doctorate in Hebrew and Greek? 

Shalom, again, Saved.One.by.Grace.

(And, He may be requiring more "Grace" than usual, right now.) I got it from my grandmother on my mom's side, and from YHWH God who designed me to be a very logical and mathematical person, and from my mother who was ALWAYS showing me the value of language and grammar. How does anyone get a doctorate? Through DILIGENT WORK, EXPOSURE to ideas, and taking the time to LEARN! It's not just some embossed piece of paper or parchment!

If you want to challenge my Professor, go ahead! He alone is my Rabbi!

There's a simple path I take:

While I will investigate all angles of how a word is used in the Scriptures (Old or New Testaments), I've learned that the INTERSECTION of the definitions is more to the point than the UNION of the definitions! And, usually, the intersection is to be found in the etymology of the word.

[BeyondET]

41 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I don't have an answer, but 1 Thessalonians 5:23 means a lot more to me because Paul was also a Jew. I only looked at it a few minutes ago. Genesis 35:18 states that the soul leaves the body at death. What the soul's function is arguable.

Soul is used sometimes to represent humanity. Jesus used the example also imo. soul was anguished His emotions.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Saved.One.by.Grace.

No, I'm quite aware. But you need to understand that the VOWELS have always been there in the pronunciation of the words, whether the vowel pointing is added or not. Vowel pointing is for students learning Hebrew and foreigners. That's not what I was talking about, anyway.

I was simply saying that the verb "raachaf," or if you prefer, "r-ch-f," "רחפ," or more specifically, "mrachefet," or "m-r-ch-f-t," "מרחפת," in the presence of this noun cannot be talking about "hovering," "brooding," or "fluttering," which all imply being stationary.

The word "ruwach," or if you prefer, "r-w-ch," "רוח," means the "wind," when used as a noun, and when used and pronounced as a verb, it means "to blow LIKE the wind!" That's not hard to understand, is it? It is DYNAMIC, not stationary!

I understand your objection to the ESV translation of that word. I have a problem with "wind". It is no more dynamic than hovering. But I understand what you're saying. The Hebrew word rhp is a verb or participle not a noun according to my Interlinear. But YHWH had an existing earth (from the Genesis 1:1) to work with.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I don't have an answer, but 1 Thessalonians 5:23 means a lot more to me because Paul was also a Jew. I only looked at it a few minutes ago. Genesis 35:18 states that the soul leaves the body at death. What the soul's function is arguable.

Shalom, Saved.One.by.Grace.

May I make a suggestion? I believe you will find the definition of a "soul" quite easy if you look at the origin of the soul: Genesis 2:7.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here's the Hebrew (without vowel pointing, for your pleasure):

וייצר יהוה אלהים את־האדם עפר מן־האדמה ויפח באפיו נשמת חיים ויהי האדם לנפש חיה׃

A transliteration would be ...

7 Vyytsr YHWH Elhym 't-h'dm `fr mn-h'dmh vyfch b'fyw nshmt chyym vyhy b'dm lnfsh chyh:

And, a word-for-word translation would be ...

7 And-formed YHWH God (d.o.->)-the-red-[man] of-dust from-the-red-[ground] and-puffed in/into-his-nostrils a-puff of-living-creatures and-became the-red-[man] to/into-a-breathing-creature living:

The Hebrew word "n-f-sh" is pronounced "neh'-fesh" when a noun, and it is pronounced, "naw-fash'" when a verb. As a verb, it means "to breathe." As a noun, it means "something that breathes." Somehow, this was translated into the English word "soul."

So, YHWH God formed the-red-[man] of-dust from the red-[ground]. What could this mean if not the body of flesh? So, the "red man of dust" is a lifeless body at this point.

Then, YHWH God puffed into his nostrils a puff of living creatures. This is similar to rescue breathing in our CPR methods used today; in fact, it is the SOURCE of our rescue breathing in CPR, with the exception that we breathe into the victim's mouth instead of his or her nostrils, and we pinch the nostrils closed!

Then, the-red-[man] became a living, breathing creature! Nothing else was added, that we were told. No special magic was introduced. God puffed into his nose, and the man began breathing on his own. The "breathing creature" was translated into this word "soul." God PREPARED the body with living cells and complete systems; all it needed was a jump-start!

Now, look at the curse:

Genesis 3:17-20 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

20 And Adam called his wife's name "Eve" ("Chavah"); because she was the mother of all living.

Let's just look at verse 19 in the Hebrew:

בזעת אפיך תאכל לחם עד שובך אל־האדמה כי ממנה לקחת כי־עפר אתה ואל־עפר תשוב׃

Here's a transliteration (without vowels):

19 Bz`t 'fykh t'khl lchm `d shwVkh 'l-h'dmh ky mmnh lqcht ky-`fr 'th v'l-`fr tshwV:

Here's a word-for-word translation:

19 In-sweat of-your-face you-shall-eat bread until you-return unto-the-red-[ground] for from-it you-were-taken for-dust you-[are] and-to-dust you-shall-return:

THAT'S where we go when we die, just as our ancestor Adam did. Where is the "air-breathing?" It STOPS! It CEASES! That particular air-breathing creature CEASES to be an air-breathing creature!

At Bin-Yamiyn's birth, Rachel's air-breathing creature went to the same place that Adam did - BACK TO THE GROUND!

Now, I know this is not difficult to understand, but it is VERY difficult to accept. We've been taught a different theology for many generations. BUT, this is why the RESURRECTION is so important!

All I ask is that you think about it.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Retrobyter
to add a space

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

What is wind what is its properties?

Shalom, BeyondET.

Well, by definition, a "wind" is "the perceptible natural movement of the air, especially in the form of a current of air blowing from a particular direction." In meteorology, we read at www.weather.gov,

"Wind is simply air in motion. Usually in meteorology, when we are talking about the wind it is the horizontal speed and direction we are concerned about. For example, if you hear a report of a west wind at 15 mph (24 km/h) that means the horizontal winds will be coming FROM the west at that speed."

From physics through www.d.umn.edu, we learn that wind is "momentum":

"Wind has two attributes: direction and magnitude. Wind, as atmospheric motion, is a form of momentum, and momentum implies both direction and magnitude (Stringer 1972:20)."

So, if one looks up "How is momentum related to force?" One will find,

"Force (F) is equal to the change in momentum (ΔP) over the change in time (Δt). And the change in momentum (ΔP) is also equal to the impulse (J). Impulse has the same units as momentum (kg*m/s or N*s)."

These units are read, "kilogram-meters per second" or "Newton-seconds." And, the formula suggested is...

F = ΔP/Δt.

So, ultimately, a wind is the FORCE behind the horizontal air flow from an area of high pressure to an area of low pressure, where "high" and "low" are relative to each other.

God obviously (to me, anyway) exerts His FORCE on all of His Universe, but in the Creation account of Genesis 1, He is exerting a LIGHT force on His initial "canvas" before He begins His "masterpiece."

[BeyondET]

28 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BeyondET.

Well, by definition, a "wind" is "the perceptible natural movement of the air, especially in the form of a current of air blowing from a particular direction." In meteorology, we read at www.weather.gov,

"Wind is simply air in motion. Usually in meteorology, when we are talking about the wind it is the horizontal speed and direction we are concerned about. For example, if you hear a report of a west wind at 15 mph (24 km/h) that means the horizontal winds will be coming FROM the west at that speed."

From physics through www.d.umn.edu, we learn that wind is "momentum":

"Wind has two attributes: direction and magnitude. Wind, as atmospheric motion, is a form of momentum, and momentum implies both direction and magnitude (Stringer 1972:20)."

So, if one looks up "How is momentum related to force?" One will find,

"Force (F) is equal to the change in momentum (ΔP) over the change in time (Δt). And the change in momentum (ΔP) is also equal to the impulse (J). Impulse has the same units as momentum (kg*m/s or N*s)."

These units are read, "kilogram-meters per second" or "Newton-seconds." And, the formula suggested is...

F = ΔP/Δt.

So, ultimately, a wind is the FORCE behind the horizontal air flow from an area of high pressure to an area of low pressure, where "high" and "low" are relative to each other.

God obviously (to me, anyway) exerts His FORCE on all of His Universe, but in the Creation account of Genesis 1, He is exerting a LIGHT force on His initial "canvas" before He begins His "masterpiece."

Psalm 147:18

He sends forth His word and melts them;

He causes His wind to blow and the waters to flow.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, @BeyondET

Exactly. The Hebrew word in that verse (Psalm 147:18) is "ruwch`ow" = "HIS-wind."