The Three Main Views of Hell

[Vine Abider]

@Tristen I (finally) went back and read some of those earlier posts.  Rather than starting with a ton of verses and the interpretations thereof, I thought to maybe address this first and see if that can lead into a fruitful discussion.

Is the human soul eternal?  The traditional view holds that the soul is immortal and that this is fully supported from scripture. It is a pretty prevalent view in Christendom and it's how I was brought up. But it is in Christ that we are given eternal life.  Prior to regeneration, the bible states we were dead.  Just dead. Not living at all - no response.  But in Christ we are made alive and given eternal life.

So if we take the stance that the soul is dead and doesn't have eternal life without Christ, then it's not a big stretch to say the dead soul would not consciously tormented forever (it would have to have been given life first). If we think the soul is immortal from our physical birth, then yes, it stands to reason that if it couldn't die, then eternal conscious torment (ECT) must likely be in store.

As others on this thread have pointed out, the idea of an immortal soul seemed to have come from the Greeks.  Then Augustine took this idea and incorporated it into Christian thought (he believed in ECT) , which influenced many downstream of him.

[Roymond]

On 1/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, Tristen said:

 

“These two words in 2 Thess 1:9 "everlasting destruction" are the Greek words "olethros" and "aionios". Aionios primarily means age-long, that is, something which is not brief or fleeting.  Olethros means ruin, doom, destruction, death.  Many theologists do not think this means eternal and conscious torment”

. . . .

Obviously, the original language is an important aspect of context – not to be ignored. And I could get on board with the ‘maybes’ if there wasn’t any other scriptural information on the subject. But I see hell described in scripture as “unquenchable/eternal/everlasting fire”, as “blackness of darkness forever”:

Revelation 20:10 - The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

"Forever and ever" is a poor translation, though; the Greek is "into the ages of ages".  In the early church both universalists and annihilationists took this to mean an extremely long time but finite; to the universalists it meant however long it took the specific soul to realize it needed God's goodness; to the annihilationists it meant however long it took a specific soul to let go of iniquity and just vanish.

On 1/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, Tristen said:

“but rather that the soul is destroyed - brought to nothingness, and that it is the results that are eternal.  This seems to be the heart of annihilationistic thinking.”

To me, that reduces the clear emphasis on a “forever” punishment to a grammatical redundancy. ‘Gone’ is ‘gone’ – there is no reason to stress the “forever” (or “eternal”, or “everlasting”) nature of non-existence.

A "to the ages" punishment that results in annihilation would be what the "ages" description refers to, not the annihilation itself.  Just exactly how to measure an "age" has never been entirely clear, even when defined as however long it takes in torment for a soul to let go of iniquity and then cease to exist, in terms of annihilation.  Give how humans cling tightly to their errors and rebellions, that could be a very long time indeed, and in fact different for every soul.

On 1/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, Tristen said:

I’m also not sure how that idea would conform to the concept of an “age-long” (“aionios”) punishment.

I would also wonder about who is doing all the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” if the souls have been “brought to nothingness”?

The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would be occurring during whatever period it takes to reduce a soul to "nothingness".

On 1/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, Tristen said:

 

As an extra thought, the following parable verse have God delivering the “wicked” (in this case, the unforgiving) to torture until they can pay Him back what is owed.

Matthew 18:34-35 - And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

You and I both know that we can never repay God what is owed – which is why His Savior is our only Hope.

 

In the context of annihilationism as considered in the early church, "pay all that is due" would be tied to giving up iniquity -- however long that takes.  In the case of the damned, C. S. Lewis had helpful imagery:  surrendering iniquity essentially turns the soul to nothingness so only the iniquity remains, because iniquity was all that the soul of the wicked has -- and then God does away with the iniquity.

Though the "until he should pay" was more commonly taken to mean that whenever the torment drove the tormented soul to finally recognize it needs God then the torture would end and the soul would pass into heaven as the least of the realm.

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Roymond said:

he "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would be occurring during whatever period it takes to reduce a soul to "nothingness".

A highly speculative thought.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth" - time as we experience it in our world and age will not exist in the new age to come - for in here all things are eternal.

Matt 8:11  I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 
12  while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

this will require consciousness in order to be of effect - annihilation will not produce weeping - eternal regret and sorrow. 

Matt 13:40  Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 
41  The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 
42  and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 
43  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matt 22:10  And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 
11  “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 
12  And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 
13  Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 
14  For many are called, but few are chosen.”

There is nothing in scripture that teaches fanciful ideas of purgatory - punishment for a set time with parole on offer - judgement is eternal.

Eternal for those who are worthy to receive mercy and eternal life and eternal for those who are judged evil and will receive eternal condemnation.

To produce a theology of purgatory and/or annihilation is to also challenge the doctrine of eternal life and reward. The same Greek wording is used for both.

Mark 10:29  Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 
30  who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.

eternal - G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios

life - G2222 ζωή zōē

and in the age to come eternal life - so is this a limited time offer ??

Edited January 13, 2023 by Waggles

[Mije]

On 1/12/2023 at 3:24 PM, Starise said:

talked with a person who wants to go to hell.

There is a book in my local library entitled, ‘Famous People Who Are Going to Hell’.

It’s a who’s who of atheists…

[Marathoner]

It would be good to share how I came to be persuaded regarding the second death.

First, notions of an "afterlife" come to us from ancient superstitious belief pertaining to life after death. The afterlife of pagan systems are an elaborate affair and differ widely, though most are unified with regard to one persistent belief:

The immortality of the human spirit/soul.

I searched the scriptures and found the notion of an immortal human soul alien to their testimony. There is only one exception, and we should know this well:

The Son of God is well-pleased to give us eternal life. This is His reward to us.

We recall that Adam and his wife were cast out of the garden before they could eat from the Tree of Life, and thus live eternally. This underwrites the scriptural doctrine that the Lord God alone grants eternal life to man. 

Furthermore, the Lord declared that the soul who sins shall die, a reaffirmation that man does not already possess eternal life. This was what convinced me regarding the second death, for it is given that man shall die and then face judgment...

For the dead shall be resurrected to be judged by the Son of God upon His throne. Those whose names are not written in the book of life shall be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. The dead see nothing and know nothing as the scripture informs us.

The second death is final (eternal). 

We read that the former things shall pass away and will be remembered no more, for the Lord makes all things new. In my opinion this teaching precludes the lake of fire burning eternally, perpetually tormenting those who were cast into it. The former things will be gone forever, which is how they will be remembered no more.

The scriptural context of eternal life is ever so clear, that this is the gift of God. The Father has given this to His beloved Son, that He grants eternal life to whomever He pleases; we whose lives are hidden in Him have already received this promise from the Lord, but there is one thing which I admit escapes my understanding:

The names of some of the dead might be written in the book of life. I'm aware of the teaching that many adhere to, that all of the dead will be cast into the fire; this is not how relevant scripture from the book of Revelation reads. We read that only those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. This implies that there will be some who shall be spared.

[Waggles]

2 hours ago, Marathoner said:

The second death is final (eternal). 

1: the lake of fire is spiritual not natural. The dead shall feel and experience the sensation of being on fire but not burn from natural flames.

2: the devil and his angels are also cast into the lake of fire and scripture does not teach that they are annihilated and let off their just recompense.

Matt 25:41  Then shall he say also to them on the left, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:46  And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. 

in verse 46 "eternal" used twice is the same Greek word - G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios - it is being used in the same sense of meaning for both everlasting outcomes.

3: The soul [a living being of flesh and spirit] shall die; that is we cannot go on into the eternities because of our rebellion against righteousness. The wicked whose names are not written in the books of Life are cast away into the lake of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

Matt 13:40  Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 
41  The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 
42  and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The dead will not be weeping and gnashing - those in the lake of fire must have consciousness in order for this punishment to take effect.

The lake of fire and the second death is spiritual not natural - the first death is natural, dust to dust, but the second death is to do with a resurrected body brought up from wherever by God for this great day of Judgement.

[Waggles]

3 hours ago, Mije said:

There is a book in my local library entitled, ‘Famous People Who Are Going to Hell’.

It’s a who’s who of atheists…

A rather simplistic view of judgement - many many Christians will also not make it.

[Waggles]

everlasting: Gr. aionios, +Matt_18:8, Some go to great length to argue that the punishment threatened here by our Lord Jesus Christ is not truly everlasting or never-ending. Those who argue this way do so in an effort to bolster their mistaken notion of justice and their mistaken view of the character of God (+**Gen_18:25 note).

Some quibble over the meaning of “eternal,” arguing from the fact that the word in Scripture is sometimes used in a finite sense (+Psa_24:9 note), and sometimes used in an infinite sense (Joh_6:54 note). From this fact they justify asserting a limited sense to the duration of everlasting punishment.

The answer to this objection is simple. Jesus spoke of two ages, this age, and the age to come. In the King James Version these terms are translated “this world” and “the world to come” in Mat_12:32.

When the word “eternal” is applied to things restricted to this age it is used in a finite or limited sense. When “eternal” has reference to things in “the age to come,” it is used in an infinite sense.

Clearly God is eternal and will continue to exist in the age to come. Just as eternal life and eternal punishment pertain to and exist in the age to come, so “eternal” in reference to them is used in the infinite, never-ending sense. +*Mat_18:8, Psa_52:5; Psa_92:7, **Isa_33:14; Isa_38:18, +*Dan_12:2, *Mar_3:29, 2Th_1:9, Heb_6:2, *Rev_14:11.

The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith © 2004

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, Waggles said:

A rather simplistic view of judgement - many many Christians will also not make it.

OK, I'll bite: "Many, many Christians will also not make it" . . . where?

Edited January 14, 2023 by Vine Abider

[Roymond]

7 hours ago, Waggles said:

A highly speculative thought.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth" - time as we experience it in our world and age will not exist in the new age to come - for in here all things are eternal.

Matt 8:11  I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 
12  while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

this will require consciousness in order to be of effect - annihilation will not produce weeping - eternal regret and sorrow. 

Matt 13:40  Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 
41  The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 
42  and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 
43  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matt 22:10  And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 
11  “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 
12  And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 
13  Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 
14  For many are called, but few are chosen.”

There is nothing in scripture that teaches fanciful ideas of purgatory - punishment for a set time with parole on offer - judgement is eternal.

Eternal for those who are worthy to receive mercy and eternal life and eternal for those who are judged evil and will receive eternal condemnation.

To produce a theology of purgatory and/or annihilation is to also challenge the doctrine of eternal life and reward. The same Greek wording is used for both.

Mark 10:29  Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 
30  who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.

eternal - G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios

life - G2222 ζωή zōē

and in the age to come eternal life - so is this a limited time offer ??

The sense of αἰώνιον in these contexts is "until X is finished".

So while ζωὴν αἰώνιον doesn't really mean "eternal life" in the strict sense of the words, it does in the contextual use because the life of/in heaven never gets finished, so there is no end, while punishment can be completed and thus come to an end.

So the source you have in italics fails -- yes, its the same word, but the difference is that the full sense of the word rests with what is being described.