Daniel 9:24-27: When?

[Retrobyter]

On 1/9/2023 at 5:00 PM, WilliamL said:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

Nothing in the passage of Daniel 9:24-27 can be demonstrated to have any unequivocal prophetic message for OUR time, despite the great deal of hype to the contrary. It doesn’t mention at all

– any “abomination of desolation of the Holy Place [Sanctuary]” (Matt. 24:15; cf. Deut. 7:25-26 and Dan. 11:31);

– the time of the end/latter time/latter days, or any similar term;

– the Great Tribulation/“time of trouble such as never was” (Dan. 12:1);

– the saints, or any flight of God’s people;

– Messiah’s coming in the clouds, Divine Judgment, and/or the establishment of God’s kingdom;

– the King of the North’s or the Little Horn’s demise;

– or the raising of the dead.

These topics are discussed elsewhere in Daniel’s End Time prophecies. Why are none of them found here? Because this is not a prophecy about the end of the Church Age, but rather about the end of the Jewish Age. Remember, Gabriel said that this prophecy of 70 weeks was to be “upon thy [Danielʼs] people,” that is, “my [Danielʼs] people Israel,” and no one else. Dan. 9:24, 20

Shalom, WilliamL.

I'm going back to the original post, because - despite what other say - Daniel 9:24-27 does NOT talk about an "antichrist" or a "beast" figure, at all!

And, that is the ONLY thing they try to take away from this passage of Scripture in Daniel.

As I've said before, the "prince that shall come" in verse 26 is part of a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! It is the OBJECT of a preposition and cannot be the SUBJECT of the verbs found in verse 27! The end of verse 26 is NOT the end of the sentence, for verse 27 has no subject noun associated with the verbs! The whole verse is PREDICATE!

Thus, it is NOT the "prince that shall come" who "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week!" It is NOT the "prince that shall come" who "in the midst of the week, shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease!" And, it is NOT the "prince that shall come" who "for the overspreading of abominations, shall make it desolate!"

So, one must go back farther in verse 26 to find a singular, masculine person-noun that can act as the subject for these verbs. That noun MUST be "the Messiah" of verse 26!

[WilliamL]

On 2/26/2023 at 7:10 AM, Diaste said:

The significance of the A of D and it's nature relating to the time of the end, as Jesus told us about in Matt 24, is found in Daniel 9, 11, 12.

We are to look to Daniel for the information and understanding regarding the future A of D. 

Daniel 11 is past history up to verse 40, but the section about the AD by Antiochus Epiphanes is certainly relevant to the End Times as a type and shadow. A detailed study about this can be found here:

28. Antiochus Epiphanes and the End Times, Part 3: The Prophetic Fulfillment

Shows how Daniel 11:40ʼs King of the North “in a time of an end” will commit comparable acts, and in the same sequence, as did Antiochus Epiphanes, therein fulfilling both Old and New Testament prophecies. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1433-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-3-the-prophetic-fulfillment/

Daniel 12:11 is the only passage in Daniel that prophesies the Abomination of Desolation quoted by Jesus in Matt. 24.

Daniel 9 has nothing at all to do with the End Times, no matter what projections into it people make.

On 2/26/2023 at 7:10 AM, Diaste said:

I also am of the mind 'Daniel's people' are whomsoever is of the faith. It's not Israel...It's THE Israel; the same one into the which we are grafted. 

A common opinion/projection, but one not supplied by the text; and certainly not by the text of Daniel 9. No prophecy of the Gospel or the Church is contained in Daniel: it is a book about Jews for Jews. Daniel 9:26 prophesies the coming of and the cutting off of Jesus, but says absolutely nothing about his Gospel message. That alone should settle the case.

[WilliamL]

On 2/27/2023 at 6:29 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

you don't address the sealing up of the prophecy part,
certainly we are reading and discussing the prophecy still,
it is not sealed up.

I've answered it many times. Daniel is a book about Jews -- Daniel's "thy people" (Dan. 9:24] -- and Jews alone. It prophesies nothing about the Gospel or the Church; see my post above.

The time of Jewish prophecy was sealed up with John the Baptist:

Matt. 11:13 “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it."

Old Testament prophets had the Holy Spirit "come upon" them. Beginning at John, prophets were "filled with the Holy Spirit." The old manner of prophesying has been closed up ever since that time, which is why there have been no more Jewish prophets recognized by that people.

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

As I've said before, the "prince that shall come" in verse 26 is part of a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! It is the OBJECT of a preposition and cannot be the SUBJECT of the verbs found in verse 27!

That is how it is written in standard English Bibles, but that is not how it is written in the Hebrew. The English translators just put their own spin on the verse, likely because their own eschatology influenced their reading of the text.

In truth, the Hebrew text reads "a nagyd/commander/leader, the one coming in..." The latter phrase is a stand-alone participial phrase:

…וְהָעִיר/and the city וְהַקֹּדֶשׁ/and the sanctuary/holy place יַשְׁחִית/he shall cause to ruin/destroy [Hiphil Imperfect 3ms] עַם/people נָגִיד/of a leader/commander הַבָּא/the one coming in [Qal Active Participle ms with ה prefix]…

“…and people of a leader/commander, the one coming in, he shall cause to destroy the city and the sanctuary.” …

Comment: This passage is tricky, and translations generally over-simplify it. One key is to correctly interpret the verb participle בָּא. Participles can be of three types, which must be determined by the context:

1) Attributive: a verb used as an adjective to modify a noun. This is how הַבָּא is most commonly interpreted: “the coming leader/prince.” However, Hebrew grammar requires that an attributive participle must match the noun it modifies – in this potential case, נָגִיד/leader – with both participle and noun having, or both not having, the definite article ה/“the.” That is not the case here: בָּא has a ה, but נָגִיד does not. So this cannot be an attributive participle.

2) Predicative: used as a verb. These participles never take the definite article, so הַבָּא cannot be a predicative participle.

3) Substantive: used as a noun: “one doing” something. That is the case here: this is a participle used as a stand-alone phrase, “the one coming in.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1592-daniel-924-27-examined-part-4-verse-26/

 

[Uriah]

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

They would not worship a Gentile, A Jewish person yes.

Just because he is Jewish they will worship a blaspheming monster?

 

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

There really is no information of the a/c targeting Israel yet to receive the Mark that I know of

He causes all great and small to get the mark, no?

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

Just because he is Jewish they will worship a blaspheming monster?

 

He causes all great and small to get the mark, no?

Yet Zech 13:8,9 makes it challenging. In the whole land, declares the Lord, two thirds will perish, yet one third will be left in it.  This third I will bring into the Fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say they are my people, and they will say, The Lord is our God.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 11 is past history up to verse 40, but the section about the AD by Antiochus Epiphanes is certainly relevant to the End Times as a type and shadow. A detailed study about this can be found here:

28. Antiochus Epiphanes and the End Times, Part 3: The Prophetic Fulfillment

Shows how Daniel 11:40ʼs King of the North “in a time of an end” will commit comparable acts, and in the same sequence, as did Antiochus Epiphanes, therein fulfilling both Old and New Testament prophecies. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1433-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-3-the-prophetic-fulfillment/

Daniel 12:11 is the only passage in Daniel that prophesies the Abomination of Desolation quoted by Jesus in Matt. 24.

Daniel 9 has nothing at all to do with the End Times, no matter what projections into it people make.

Jesus said, "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),"

Daniel 12 isn't a description of the A of D. Daniel 9 is. Daniel 11 is.

"And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,  but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,  until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him"

"Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation."

I'm not speaking to the fulfillment of the prophecy, I'm speaking to the information about the prophecy of the coming A of D as prophesied by Jesus.

Even as the above is a prophecy fulfilled well before Jesus, Jesus said another was coming and that Daniel had critical information about it.

So to understand about the future A of D, Jesus said to look to the past A of D.

 

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

A common opinion/projection, but one not supplied by the text; and certainly not by the text of Daniel 9. No prophecy of the Gospel or the Church is contained in Daniel: it is a book about Jews for Jews. Daniel 9:26 prophesies the coming of and the cutting off of Jesus, but says absolutely nothing about his Gospel message. That alone should settle the case.

If that's the case we better start thinking a whole lot of the OT is only for the Jews and no one else; like when Isaiah talks about a Messiah in chapter 9. 

There's a ton of other examples.

And if Daniel has nothing for any other group but Jews, then nothing in Daniel is for anyone but the Jews, and we can't appropriate any of it for the modern church.

Jesus was only sent to the Jews and Israel but we know His Gospel is for everyone. 

So no, Daniel is not an exclusive Jewish text, it's for His people, and Daniel's people, Israel.

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 2/27/2023 at 8:20 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Desopixi seilynam,

But this is all speculation, not scripture.

That the anti-Christ will pretend to be the Messiah is from scripture,
he certainly will not be a Gentile obvious tyrant,
the anti-Christ is the ultimate deception, with miracles and everything.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3
Matthew 24:24
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4,9
Revelation 13:11-18

 

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The time of Jewish prophecy was sealed up with John the Baptist:

Matt. 11:13 “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

But the prophecy, and vision, is simply not sealed up.

We, today right now are reading and discussing that same Jewish prophecy.
And according to Paul we are Jews. [Romans 2:28]

The major prophets prophesied until John,
it's not that their prophecy is only up to the time of John,
because in Daniel it specifically says that the Messiah would suffer the death penalty, Daniel 9:26, which is after John's time, and in Daniel it also clearly speaks of the resurrections; Daniel 12:2. It's not that the prophecy is up until the time of John,
but that all the major prophetic books where written and in place by the time of John.
At that point, the Messiahs ministry, which included prophecy (Matthew 24) began.

And clearly Paul prophesies; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, 1 Thess 4:16-17, 2 Thess 2:3-9.

 

There will come a time when there is no need for any prophecy at all.

"to seal up the vision and prophecy" Daniel 9:24

As of now we are still pondering Daniel's visions.
 

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

That the anti-Christ will pretend to be the Messiah is from scripture,
he certainly will not be a Gentile obvious tyrant,
the anti-Christ is the ultimate deception, with miracles and everything.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3
Matthew 24:24
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4,9
Revelation 13:11-18

Am I missing something? These verses don't indicate if it is a Jew or Gentile. All I see is that the a/c is a anti religious God hating Satanic tyrant. I think the image I posted shows what a mocker he is, not pretending to be a Messiah.