Unclean Spirits, Divine Healing and Modern Medicine

[The Barbarian]

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

Interesting though. Sounds like God made them with the possibility to change for the good, but satan and Adam and Eve messed it up and death came and now evolution can be demonic, bacteria and viruses causing diseases and becoming restistant to medicine.

Or humans evolving resistance to disease or ability to live at high altitudes, both of which are documented.    Evolution is a natural phenomenon, created by God do do His will in this world. 

 

[RV_Wizard]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

Again, you revised scripture to fit your wishes.   You shouldn't do that.

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.  Perhaps you should try reading the bible, not just denying what it says.

[The Barbarian]

17 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Perhaps you should try reading the bible, not just denying what it says.

King David wites:

Psalms 30:1 I will exalt you, Lord, for you lifted me out of the depths and did not let my enemies gloat over me.  ² Lord my God, I called to you for help, and you healed me.
³ You, Lord, brought me up from the realm of the dead; you spared me from going down to the pit.

This does not mean King David died, and it does not mean that Jonah died.   You merely added that idea to His word for your own desires.   C'mon.

Do you not see that the whale saved him from drowning?   

He had fallen to the depths of the sea about to drown,when the whale came in and saved him.    God was not done with him and had a job for him to do in Nineveh.   God was determined that the people of Nineveh would repent, and Jonah was His instrument.   He would not cast aside the instrument until his purpose was fulfilled.

And when Jonah called on the Lord for help, the whale safely returned him to land.

[RV_Wizard]

40 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

King David wites: .... This does not mean King David died, and it does not mean that Jonah died.   You merely added that idea to His word for your own desires. 

So you ARE capable of posting entire verses, not just taking phrases out of context.

There is no absolute consensus on this, but we can use the Bible as a reference.

Those who accept the literal account of Jonah take one of two main views regarding what happened to Jonah during his time in the belly of the great fish. One view holds that Jonah died and later returned to life. The second view holds that Jonah remained alive for three days in the belly of the great fish. Both views agree on a literal reading of the book of Jonah and affirm God’s supernatural ability to rescue His prophet. The difference is whether to see Jonah 2:10 as a description of a weak and bedraggled Jonah or as a truly resurrected Jonah.

Those who argue that Jonah died and later rose again appeal to Jonah’s prayer in Jonah 2:2: “From the depths of the grave I called for help.” The use of Sheol, the Hebrew term for “the grave,” could mean that Jonah actually died. Yet the words “the depths of the grave,” seen as a poetic turn of phrase, could easily refer to an agonizing or horrifying experience.

There’s another reason that some argue for Jonah’s death and resurrection: Jesus said, “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40). The reasoning is that, since Jesus’ death and resurrection were actual, then Jonah must have also actually died and later returned to life.  source

Jonah said he went to Shoel.  Shoel was a place where the dead went; the righteous for rest and the evil to await the final judgment.  It was a region with an impassable divide but where one side could see the other.  It is from Shoel, the side of torment, that the rich man saw Lazarus and Abraham on the righteous side,   It is from Shoel, the place of rest, that Saul had Samuel summoned by the witch of Endor.  

It is taught that when Jesus died He went to Shoel.  He conquered death and brought the righteous out of Shoel to Heaven.  The righteous could not get to Heaven earlier because the only way to get to the Father is by the Son.  So the belief that Jonah went to Shoel and was taken from there by God is founded in solid doctrine.

Jonah's body remained in the belly of the great fish, so it could be argued that he was in both places.  His resurrection is likened to Christ's, only about 793 years earlier (760 BC).  Incidentally, there are a total of 10 resurrections recorded in the Bible.

 

[The Barbarian]

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

So you ARE capable of posting entire verses, not just taking phrases out of context.

If you had not take scripture out of context, you wouldn't have denied God's word.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

There is no absolute consensus on this

But you invented something because you took one verse out of context, ignoring that the same thing, used elsewhere in scripture made it clear that it did not mean the person was dead.

King David wites:

Psalms 30:1 I will exalt you, Lord, for you lifted me out of the depths and did not let my enemies gloat over me.  ² Lord my God, I called to you for help, and you healed me.
³ You, Lord, brought me up from the realm of the dead; you spared me from going down to the pit.

This does not mean King David died, and it does not mean that Jonah died.   You merely added that idea to His word for your own desires.   C'mon.

[RV_Wizard]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

But you invented something because you took one verse out of context,

Not at all.  Jonah testified that he went to Shoel, which is the place of the dead.  of course, I am not the author of that interpretation either, as I posted the commentary.  You can't avoid being dishonest.  It's just what you do.

Jonah 2:2.  He said: “In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help, and you listened to my cry."

What is Sheol?  Sheol is not the same as Hell.  Both Sheol and Hades are temporary hells and will be dumped into the Lake of Fire, the permanent Hell.

Re 20:14, “Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

Sheol is not a place where souls sleep.  The rich man saw Lazarus afar off (Lu 16).  He also saw Abraham, and he talked to both of them. 

Sheol is divided into two separate compartments: 1) Paradise (the residence for believers) and 2) the place for the lost (Lu 16:25).
Sheol can mean simply the grave.  It was used this way of the death of Christ. 
Ps 16:10, “For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.”  source

Since I invented it, I presume you think I wrote the article?

[The Barbarian]

But you invented something because you took one verse out of context, ignoring that the same thing, used elsewhere in scripture made it clear that it did not mean the person was dead.

22 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Not at all.  Jonah testified that he went to Shoel, which is the place of the dead. 

Actually, Jonah wrote that God took him up from the place of the dead.   And kind David says that  God brought him up from the place of the dead.   So you're still trying to tell us that David had died and was resurrected? 

Now you're pretending I made a different argument:

22 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Jonah testified that he went to Shoel, which is the place of the dead.  of course, I am not the author of that interpretation either, as I posted the commentary. 

I'm pointing out that David and Jonah said God brought them up from Sheol; obviously, they didn't die, but they were saying that they were saved from death.  And you pretended I was arguing that Sheol was not a place of the dead.

You probably can avoid being dishonest, but you let your anger override you common sense.  

I showed you that the phrase was used by others as being saved from death:

 But you invented something because you took one verse out of context, ignoring that the same thing, used elsewhere in scripture made it clear that it did not mean the person was dead.

You should have just learned from scripture and moved on.  Instead, you tried to make it appear that I said something I did not.  

It's a very bad idea to try to use God's word to be deceptive.

Edited March 26, 2024 by The Barbarian

[BeyondET]

On 3/24/2024 at 9:32 AM, RV_Wizard said:

The Bible also says a "great fish" swallowed Jonah.  A whale's throat is usually too small, so what swallowed Jonah? 

A lobster fisherman got swallowed by a humpback whale afew years back. He lived to tell about it.

What whale has a throat to small to swallow a human. A pilot whale I could see not being big enough.

[RV_Wizard]

5 hours ago, BeyondET said:

What whale has a throat to small to swallow a human. A pilot whale I could see not being big enough.

The only whale with a throat large enough to swallow a man is a sperm whale.  However, the Bible didn't say what it was other than it being a "great fish."  As it has been pointed out, whales were counted among the fish kinds.  Maybe it was a sperm whale.  Maybe it was something now extinct.

[RV_Wizard]

5 hours ago, BeyondET said:

A lobster fisherman got swallowed by a humpback whale afew years back. He lived to tell about it.

No.  The whale had him in its mouth.  He was not swallowed.  source