Rev 20, literal, symbolic, spiritual.

[abcdef]

On 3/24/2023 at 3:52 AM, Selah7 said:

The Little Horn and Man of SIN and the Beast (when applied to the AC and not the one-world system in ch. 13 of Rev.) is none other than the dragon who is the devil who is Satan.  

In Rev 20, the dragon deceives the nations Magog into surrounding Jerusalem.

If Satan is a spirit, how does he deceive those nations? Through men?

What is the deception? What would be the lie that he tells to Magog, to have them attack Jerusalem?

[FJK]

8 minutes ago, abcdef said:

What would be the lie that he tells to Magog, to have them attack Jerusalem?

I imagine it would be along the lines of the Jews being the root of all the world's problems, and eliminating then would make everything right.

[abcdef]

Just now, FJK said:

I imagine it would be along the lines of the Jews being the root of all the world's problems, and eliminating then would make everything right.

I would agree with that. 

--

So what happens after Magog surrounds Jerusalem in Rev 20?

Are they successful in conquering Jerusalem?

Why does it show the last judgment and death being destroyed after that?

 

[BibleWords]

When we take all Scripture symbolically that is allegory.

The problem with allegory is that you can make Scripture say anything you want it to.

Also, many times in the Bible what God does may not match man’s “logic”.

Healing, raising the dead, creating, multiplying loaves and fish, rapture, heaven, hell, miracles.

These all do not fit man’s logic.  Doesn’t matter. God is in charge.  We don’t get to vote.

Our job is to trust Him.

[truth7t7]

On 3/27/2023 at 10:14 AM, abcdef said:

In Rev 20, the dragon deceives the nations Magog into surrounding Jerusalem.

If Satan is a spirit, how does he deceive those nations? Through men?

What is the deception? What would be the lie that he tells to Magog, to have them attack Jerusalem?

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Edited April 4, 2023 by truth7t7

[abcdef]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

When we take all Scripture symbolically that is allegory.

The scriptures are both literal and symbolic. Even the literal events have a symbolic meaning.   

Jesus, the Lamb.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

The problem with allegory is that you can make Scripture say anything you want it to.

The meaning of the symbols comes from the OT. 

Light and dark, waters, trumpets, all have their symbolism found in the OT.

The meaning is generally the same in the Revelation and can be confirmed.

Those who choose to intentionally ignore the symbolism do it because it shows disagreement with their theories, I believe. 

What happens is that they make the symbols themselves the subject, instead of what the symbols represent, that is the subject. They say that the symbols are literal, instead of what the symbols represent, that is literal, that is the subject. 

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

Also, many times in the Bible what God does may not match man’s “logic”.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

Healing,

Rhetorical questions follow,

A blind man was healed by Jesus, what is the symbolism that it shows? I was blind, but now I see?

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

raising the dead,

Does raising the dead symbolize the power of Jesus over death?

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

creating,

What does the creation symbolize about God? The beginning and the end?

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

multiplying loaves

What does the bread symbolize? What does multiplying the bread symbolize?

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

and fish,

What do fish symbolize? Fishers of men?

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

rapture,

Rapture, the victory over death? 

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

heaven, hell, miracles.

How is heaven symbolized, a place that is so great, we cannot imagine it? A city? A mountain? New Jerusalem?

To purposely ignore the symbolism is a distortion of the message.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

These all do not fit man’s logic.

Sorry, but they are meant to fit man's logic, they are a communication from God that people are supposed to understand.

They are understood by the studies of the scriptures.

The scriptures are revealed by God. To whom they are revealed is decided by Him.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, BibleWords said:

 Doesn’t matter. God is in charge.  We don’t get to vote.

Our job is to trust Him.

We don't vote, but we do choose to become a Christian or not.

The answers are there, we just need to study.

[BibleWords]

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

The scriptures are both literal and symbolic. Even the literal events have a symbolic meaning.   

Jesus, the Lamb.

 

The meaning of the symbols comes from the OT. 

Light and dark, waters, trumpets, all have their symbolism found in the OT.

The meaning is generally the same in the Revelation and can be confirmed.

Those who choose to intentionally ignore the symbolism do it because it shows disagreement with their theories, I believe. 

What happens is that they make the symbols themselves the subject, instead of what the symbols represent, that is the subject. They say that the symbols are literal, instead of what the symbols represent, that is literal, that is the subject. 

 

 

Rhetorical questions follow,

A blind man was healed by Jesus, what is the symbolism that it shows? I was blind, but now I see?

 

Does raising the dead symbolize the power of Jesus over death?

 

What does the creation symbolize about God? The beginning and the end?

 

What does the bread symbolize? What does multiplying the bread symbolize?

 

What do fish symbolize? Fishers of men?

 

Rapture, the victory over death? 

 

How is heaven symbolized, a place that is so great, we cannot imagine it? A city? A mountain? New Jerusalem?

To purposely ignore the symbolism is a distortion of the message.

 

Sorry, but they are meant to fit man's logic, they are a communication from God that people are supposed to understand.

They are understood by the studies of the scriptures.

The scriptures are revealed by God. To whom they are revealed is decided by Him.

 

We don't vote, but we do choose to become a Christian or not.

The answers are there, we just need to study.

Why do you say that everything in Scripture is symbolic?

Blind men being healed doesn’t always symbolize spiritual blindness.

Jesus has power over death with or without a symbol.

Creation is itself the reality, it isn’t a symbol.

The fish do not symbolize fishermen, they symbolize fish.

Who says the rapture symbolizes victory over death?  No, the resurrection is victory over death.

God is in no way obligated to fit man’s logic.  Miracles are not meant to be logical.  That’s why they are miracles.  They are by definition not logical.  They are the power of God.

So are you saying that these secret mystical meanings are strung all throughout the Scriptures and are decoded by a choice few to whom they are revealed?

Spiritualizing Scripture is not sound biblical interpretation.  Figures of speech do exist in literal interpretation but we cannot simply allegorize the entire Bible to our own fanciful desires.

[abcdef]

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

Why do you say that everything in Scripture is symbolic?

I didn't say that everything in the scriptures is symbolic. In my very first line in my previous post I said that the scriptures are both literal and symbolic.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

Blind men being healed doesn’t always symbolize spiritual blindness.

This is true, doctors are sometimes able to help the blind see.

John 9:39, 2 Pet 1:9, Rev 3:17, talk about spiritual blindness.

Jesus bringing spiritual sight to people is symbolized by Jesus literally healing the literally blind as John 9:39-41.

--

2 Cor 3:13-16, 14, shows the blindness of the vail of Moses under the Old covenant over the children of Israel. When they come to Jesus, then the vail of blindness (v 14) is lifted.

The literal vail that Moses wore was symbolic of the children of Israel living under the Law of Moses until Jesus came. When Israel believes, then the vail is lifted.

So although the vail of Moses was literal, it was symbolic of the blindness of Israel until it is lifted in Jesus and the new covenant, Paul said. John 9:39-41.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

Jesus has power over death with or without a symbol.

True, Jesus has the power over death and doesn't need a symbol.

One symbolic event showing the resurrection of Jesus is Jonah and the whale.

Matt 12:40, shows that Jesus has the power over death by the events of Jonah.

Jesus doesn't need symbolism, but He does use it to communicate to the children of Israel through the scriptures.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

Creation is itself the reality, it isn’t a symbol.

Creation is a reality, yes. 

But the creation of 6 days and then a day of rest symbolizes the sabbath rest.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

The fish do not symbolize fishermen, they symbolize fish.

The fish symbolize people, Matt 4:19. The apostles are symbolized as fishermen when they preach the gospel. 

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

Who says the rapture symbolizes victory over death?  No, the resurrection is victory over death.

Paul, 1 Cor 15:35-38, compares the resur/rapt to wheat that dies, but is reborn as having a new body.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

God is in no way obligated to fit man’s logic.

God is love, Jesus is the truth, that is logical. 

God will always be love and truth.

So God will always be in unison with that logic and do things according to it.

--

We will not understand HOW Jesus did miracles until He tells us, that is, manipulate the material world.

But there is a logical explanation, that has not been revealed yet.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

 Miracles are not meant to be logical.  That’s why they are miracles.

Miracles communicate a message from God.

What that message is varies.

Healing the blind and sick points to healing our spiritual sicknesses also.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

 They are by definition not logical.

Miracles are logical, from God's point of view.

How the miracles are done, the manipulation of the material world, is not all revealed yet. Just because we don't know how Jesus did them, doesn't mean that they are not logical or without a reason.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

 They are the power of God.

Miracles are the power of God in action.

Miracles point to a higher power than our own, imply a power higher than our own, symbolize a power higher than our own.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

So are you saying that these secret mystical meanings are strung all throughout the Scriptures and are decoded by a choice few to whom they are revealed?

There is nothing secret about the symbols in the Bible. They can be studied and understood by anyone who takes the time to do so.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

Spiritualizing Scripture is not sound biblical interpretation.

Yes it is. Those who say that it isn't contradict this verse, 1 Cor 2:14.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

 Figures of speech do exist in literal interpretation but we cannot simply allegorize the entire Bible to our own fanciful desires.

The scriptures are both literal and symbolic.

Jesus, the Lamb.

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by abcdef

[BibleWords]

Ok, I see we are at a seeming impasse.

Let’s consider only one example of the Scriptures.  Just one.

Ps. 90:10 is a fair example.

 “The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow: for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.”

Some who use the allegorical method of interpretation would say there are symbols, types, and shadows in this psalm.

Literal interpretation would say this is a psalm about the brevity of life using some figures of speech but meaning contained within the plain words.

For instance, “days of our years” might be interpreted by allegory as a longer period of time than simply days.

Literalists would say, day means day, or at best series of days, but nevertheless a lifetime of days.  Not any symbolism at all.  Literal.

”Threescore and ten”, or 70 years might mean “something perfect” to the allegorist since seven is the number of perfection.

The literalist would say it means 70 years.

“Reason of strength” might mean someone who is saved to the allegorist since Phil. 4:13 says “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me”.

The literalist would say it means healthy and strong in latter years.  No hidden meaning.

“Fourscore years” or 80 years might mean extended life in salvation beyond 70 mortal years to the allegorical interpretation.

The literalist would say 80 means 80.  Years means years.  Not symbolic.

“Yet is their strength labour and sorrow” might mean persecution and trials for believers to the allegorist.

To the literalist this means normal hardship at an old age.  This could be applied to either Christian or unbelievers.

”For it is soon cut off, and we fly away” might mean the rapture of believers to an allegorist.  To some this is certainly what they believe.  Just because the words “we fly away” are used they declare that this is a picture of the rapture.  Of course it is not.

The literalist would say that this is describing the brevity of life, then death.  “We fly away” obviously describes the spirit of man going back to God who gave it.  Ecc. 12:7

This psalm is about the brevity of life.  There is not a double meaning here.  The plain sense of Scripture here is a literal meaning.  When we spiritualize Scripture we can come up with all sorts of meaning that was never meant.

 

 

 

 

[abcdef]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

14 For they are the spirits of devils,

These are spirits that come out of the mouth, Rev 16:13. It might be assumed that these spirits are lying words. The subject of their lies is the children of Israel and Jerusalem restored, which they are persuaded to attack.

The lie is an old one, that is, The children of Israel are not God's people and the God of Israel is not God.

--

Think about this, the conquest of Jerusalem as shown at the 6th vial/(trumpet), could not happen unless Jerusalem is restored to the children of Israel. That is, the kings of the east have conquered Jerusalem before in the time of the crusades, but the children of Israel did not control Jerusalem at that time.

So what is different presently is that Jerusalem was restored in 1967.

That means that these events can and are happening right now.

--

The deception is that the Roman Vatican recognized the State of Palestine in 2013 and the Iran/Vatican treaty followed in 2015.

In doing so the Roman Vatican rejected the current nation of Israel as God's people.

This is because their are 2 Israels. 

One group is in Rome, who claims to be Israel exclusively.

One group is in Jerusalem, and appear to be the children of Israel, both flesh broken branches and flesh Christian branches. Both groups are the flesh children of Jacob, some believing and some still hanging on to the old covenant.

----

Just consider, that the Vatican has taken the side in the war that is now happening, of the side that wants to conquer Jerusalem and kill the children of Israel.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

working miracles,

What kind of Miracles are you expecting? These spirits come out of the mouth, so what do these spirits do that is a miracle?

If it comes from the dragon, the beast, and false prophet, wouldn't that be lies? Lying miracles?

What will they do? Good or evil miracles? The miracles end with the attack in the battle of Armageddon, so the miracles end purpose is against the children of Israel   in Jerusalem.

I do observe that the Vatican has claimed 1000's of miracles over centuries. I don't know if they were true miracles or not, but I do believe that many things claimed by the Roman Vatican are not true.

If there are any miracles done by these spirits, they must be related to Rome in some way. The beast is Rome as the iron in Dan 2 and the 4th beast of Dan 7 show.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Israel loses the War/Battle of Armageddon, otherwise there would be no need for the 7th vial to be poured out on Jerusalem.

If Israel would win the battle they would be still in control of Jerusalem, why would God pour out the 7th vial on them?

--

In the context of the 7 vials, the vials are poured out on the seat of the beast, the beast nation, and people of the beast. 

In that context, the 7th vial would be poured out on Jerusalem because the kings of the east with the Roman beast had defeated the children of Israel and occupied Jerusalem.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

Satan the dragon, through the Roman Vatican beast, and the false prophet (The image Caesar), has,

ALREADY, presently, currently, now, right now,

Deceived the kings of the east into attacking Jerusalem,

THEY ARE at WAR RIGHT NOW.

----

The beast ascended up from the abyss in 1929, when the Treaty of Lateran was signed. The Roman image Caesar returned to sit on the "seat of the beast", in Rome. The exact place the he left centuries ago, for different time periods.

This shows Satan being released from the abyss at the 5th trumpet/vial and the releasing from his abyss prison in Rev 20:7.

After that the children of Israel were attacked and driven back to Israel to restore Jerusalem in 1967.

Then it became possible for this scenario in the 6th vial/trumpet to take place.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

The 1000 years is the time of Satan's binding.

The time of the new covenant gospel kingdom on planet earth ends at the 2nd resurrection.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

The trib is the times of the gentiles, ending when Jerusalem is restored, the trib ended in 1967.

(The stone strikes after the iron/clay toes end, after Jerusalem is restored, 1967)

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

In the timeline, we are here. Magog is gathering forces to attack Jerusalem.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This e Rev 20:9 event, is about to happen, the surrounding of Jerusalem by Iran and it's allies Magog.

Then the resurrection/rapture and the fire from heaven.

We are in the last few moments of planet earth. The Bridegroom is coming.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

2 Pet 3:10, This verse shows the end of human life on this planet.

Both verses reference that Jesus comes as a thief.

In Rev 16:15, it shows that the coming of Jesus is imminent at the 6th vial/trumpet, where we are now. 

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The battle of Armageddon is last major battle in the war of Armageddon.

That war is going on right now.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, truth7t7 said:

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.