Rev 20, literal, symbolic, spiritual.

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9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. I do know. You are presenting symbolic representations. That's allegory.

 

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

People say it is. It's probably much simpler. Do what our Father says or reap the consequences. 

Matt 12:40, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

So the symbolism is shown by Jesus.

The "Lamb" of God. Not a literal lamb, baa, baa. It is symbolic of the sacrifice of Jesus.

Jn 3:14, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up."

A few examples.

Many prophecies are literal, but there are also symbolic prophecies in the OT.

If someone says that the prophecies are ALL literal, then it is not true, some are symbolic representations of literal events.

Symbolic representations with literal fulfillment.

 

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

allegory. A symbolic representation. 

Yes, so the chain in Rev 20 is symbolic. A symbol of a literal restriction.

 

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

I try to stand back from such things. For instance, the dragon. Is it a real dragon like is depicted in Asia and the movies? It doesn't sound plausible to people who think they are reasonable and sane.

I agree that it would be reasonable that the dragon of Rev 20:2 is not a literal dragon, dinosaur, lizard, or as depicted in Asian literature.

In Dan 7, it shows 4 beasts rising up from the sea. They are shown to be nations. The beasts are representations/symbols of nations that are described as beasts, in their relation to the children of Israel.

The symbols that describe them, wings, teeth, etc., are describing their attributes as seen from the viewpoint of Israel.

 

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Have you seen the description of the living creature in Rev 4?

What about Ezekiel 1 and the four living creatures?

The Ezek 1 and Rev 4 creatures are spiritual, creatures. They are represented as animals and entities that humans can relate to. We do not know what the spirits actually look like, what form that they have, in the spirit world.

For example, we do not know what the face of God looks like. If we saw it, we would die instantly, Ex 33:20. We do have descriptions given to us that we can relate to.

 

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Personally, the idea of an actual dragon is implausible but far from impossible. I'm not making that call until I see the prophecy manifest.

The dragon in Rev 20:2, is also seen other places in the Rev, Rev 12:3-4. He has 7 heads and 10 horns, symbols of literal attributes. 

In Rev 17, the beast is also seen with 7 heads and 10 horns, and is understood to be a nation.

Dan 7, also shows the 4th beast to be a nation.

So Rev 20:2, is not the first time that the dragon nation is seen. His history goes back to the book of Dan 7, and is identified as the nation that follows Greece in it's domination over the children of Israel beginning in 63 BC, Rome.

The Rev 20 passage is showing the Roman nation, sea beast/earth beast, from 33 AD, the resurrection of Jesus, until the time when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

So the dragon is manifest as nation since Daniel.

 

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

300 prophecies fulfilled in the person of Jesus and all were manifest in real, physical form; that is just one example from among hundreds of prophecies.

Yes, the prophecies, whether symbolically shown or literally shown, were fulfilled literally.

 

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have no reason to think any prophecy is an allegory containing mere symbols. 

Jonah and the whale.

Edited February 12, 2023 by abcdef

[truth7t7]

9 minutes ago, abcdef said:

 

Matt 12:40, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

So the symbolism is shown by Jesus.

The "Lamb" of God. Not a literal lamb, baa, baa. It is symbolic of the sacrifice of Jesus.

Jn 3:14, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up."

A few examples.

Many prophecies are literal, but there are also symbolic prophecies in the OT.

If someone says that the prophecies are ALL literal, then it is not true, some are symbolic representations of literal events.

Symbolic representations with literal fulfillment.

 

Yes, so the chain in Rev 20 is symbolic. A symbol of a literal restriction.

 

I agree that it would be reasonable that the dragon of Rev 20:2 is not a literal dragon, dinosaur, lizard, or as depicted in Asian literature.

In Dan 7, it shows 4 beasts rising up from the sea. They are shown to be nations. The beasts are representations/symbols of nations that are described as beasts, in their relation to the children of Israel.

The symbols that describe them, wings, teeth, etc., are describing their attributes as seen from the viewpoint of Israel.

 

The Ezek 1 and Rev 4 creatures are spiritual, creatures. They are represented as animals and entities that humans can relate to. We do not know what the spirits actually look like, what form that they have, in the spirit world.

For example, we do not know what the face of God looks like. If we saw it, we would die instantly, Ex 33:20. We do have descriptions given to us that we can relate to.

 

The dragon in Rev 20:2, is also seen other places in the Rev, Rev 12:3-4. He has 7 heads and 10 horns, symbols of literal attributes. 

In Rev 17, the beast is also seen with 7 heads and 10 horns, and is understood to be a nation.

Dan 7, also shows the 4th beast to be a nation.

So Rev 20:2, is not the first time that the dragon nation is seen. His history goes back to the book of Dan 7, and is identified as the nation that follows Greece in it's domination over the children of Israel beginning in 63 BC, Rome.

The Rev 20 passage is showing the Roman nation, sea beast/earth beast, from 33 AD, the resurrection of Jesus, until the time when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

So the dragon is manifest as nation since Daniel.

 

Yes, the prophecies, whether symbolically shown or literally shown, were fulfilled literally.

 

Jonah and the whale.

(The Beast) of Revelation Chapters 13 & 17 will be a future individual human man, and this "He" "His" "Him" isn't a Nation as you claim

 

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8 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

(The Beast) of Revelation Chapters 13 & 17 will be a future individual human man, and this "He" "His" "Him" isn't a Nation as you claim

To understand why the beast of Rev 13 &17, is not a man, one has to go back to Dan 2 and Dan 7.

First, understand this, all the beasts and the dragon with 7 (8) heads and ten horns in the Rev are all Rome, as well as the dragon in Rev 20:2. Caesar is Rome and Rome is Caesar.

This is shown by the Dan 2 iron and the Dan 7, 4th beast.

In Dan 2, and Dan 7, there are 4 beast nations shown, 4 and only 4. The timelines show that Rome is the iron and the 4th beast which begins to dominate the children of Israel in 63 BC.

The horns/toes are divided from the original 4th, iron, beast. They are divided, yes, but are still the 4th beast, part of the 4th beast, Rome divided, but are still part of the original Roman beast, Dan 2:41. Just as the horns of a bull would still be the bull.

Now observe that the iron lasts until the toes end and the stone strikes. The iron nation does not stop, have a gap, and then begin again, or change from being iron to another substance. 

The 10 horns of the 4th beast, and the ten toes of Dan 2, are the same as the 10 horns in the dragon/beast of Rev 12:3, 13:1, 17:3.

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Now, in describing the 4th beast of Dan 7, as one entity, one body, horns and all, one might say, "His horns are divided", or, "He is a terrible beast with iron teeth", or Satan gives "Him" power.

The use of these words in this context would not be describing one person, but the beast as a whole, a nation, as seen in Dan 7 and Dan 2.

The Rev 13, sea beast and earth beast, are both the same beast nation, the Roman 4th beast of Dan 7. They are just changing form from the Roman Empire, into the ten toes/horns. Both are still Rome, but in different forms.

So when the words describing them as "He", "Him", and "His", are used, they are describing the beast nation as one entity, and not as one individual person.

Remember, that the 4th beast of Dan 7, and the iron in Dan 2, lasts centuries. That means that the leader of that nation, Rome, is not just on person, who leads the nation, but many leaders, not just one individual's lifetime.

This is also true with the time span of the horns, they are centuries and not just one lifetime.

----

The mark of the beast is Rome and Caesar worship.

600....Satan

060....Rome

006...Caesar

666.... Satan, Rome, and a man, Caesar. The mark of Caesar worship. Caesar is the embodiment of all three powers.

Rev 13:18, "....count the number of the of the beast:", six hundred, sixty, six. Each time that you say it, you count it.

Six hundred, sixty, six.

Edited February 13, 2023 by abcdef

[truth7t7]

1 minute ago, abcdef said:

To understand why the beast of Rev 13 &17, is not a man, one has to go back to Dan 2 and Dan 7.

First, understand this, all the beasts and the dragon with 7 (8) heads and ten horns in the Rev are all Rome, as well as the dragon in Rev 20:2. Caesar is Rome and Rome is Caesar.

This is shown by the Dan 2 iron and the Dan 7, 4th beast.

In Dan 2, and Dan 7, there are 4 beast nations shown, 4 and only 4. The timelines show that Rome is the iron and the 4th beast which begins to dominate the children of Israel in 63 BC.

The horns/toes are divided from the original 4th, iron, beast. They are divided, yes, but are still the 4th beast, part of the 4th beast, Rome divided, but are still part of the original Roman beast, Dan 2:41. Just as the horns of a bull would still be the bull.

Now observe that the iron lasts until the toes end and the stone strikes. The iron nation does not stop, have a gap, and then begin again, or change from being iron to another substance. 

The 10 horns of the 4th beast, and the ten toes of Dan 2, are the same as the 10 horns in the dragon/beast of Rev 12:3, 13:1, 17:3.

------

Now, in describing the 4th beast of Dan 7, as one entity, one body, horns and all, one might say, "His horns are divided", or, "He is a terrible beast with iron teeth", or "Satan gives "Him" power.

The use of these words in this context would not be describing one person, but the beast as a whole, a nation, as seen in Dan 7 and Dan 2.

The Rev 13, sea beast and earth beast, are both the same beast nation, the Roman 4th beast of Dan 7. They are just changing form from the Roman Empire, into the ten toes/horns. Both are still Rome, but in different forms.

So when the words describing them as "He", "Him", and "His", are used, they are describing the beast nation as one entity, and not as one individual person.

Remember, that the 4th beast of Dan 7, and the iron in Dan 2, lasts centuries. That means that the leader of that nation, Rome, is not just on person, who leads the nation, but many leaders, not just one individual's lifetime.

This is also true with the time span of the horns, they are centuries and not just one lifetime.

----

The mark of the beast is Rome and Caesar worship.

600....Satan

060....Rome

006...Caesar

666.... Satan, Rome, and a man, Caesar. The mark of Caesar worship. Caesar is the embodiment of all three powers.

Rev 13:18, "....count the number of the of the beast:", six hundred, sixty, six. Each time that you say it, you count it.

Six hundred, sixty, six.

You reformed preterm has nobody fooled!

Revelation 13:18KJV

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

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Just now, truth7t7 said:

You reformed preterm has nobody fooled!

Revelation 13:18KJV

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Please take the time to think and consider what I have said.

I did show how the number of the beast nation is the number of Caesar, a man.

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In Dan 7, the 4th beast nation is seen rising up out of the sea.

The beast of Rev 13, is also seen as rising up out of the sea.

There is no 5th beast seen rising up from the sea in Dan 7, the 4th beast is the last one seen rising up from the sea.

So if one would say that there is a 5th beast rising up from the sea, that would contradict Dan 7, which shows that the 4th beast, Rome, is the last beast that rises.

[truth7t7]

46 minutes ago, abcdef said:

the beast nation is the number of Caesar, a man.

Revelation The Beast is a "Future" individual human man, your claim this represents a Nation "Rome" is out in left field

You espouse the false doctrines of reformed preterist eschatology 

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45 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation The Beast is a "Future" individual human man, your claim this represents a Nation "Rome" is out in left field

The beast nation of Dan 7 is Rome, from it's beginning until the end of the horns. 

The Dan 2 iron nation is Rome from it's beginning until the toes end and the stone strikes.

The dragon beasts with 10 horns and 7 heads are all Rome.

The idea that they are not cannot be proven, because any other theory contradicts the Dan 2 & 7 timelines. 

 

45 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

You espouse the false doctrines of reformed preterist eschatology 

You will have to show more substance than just calling me names.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Rev.21  the city the bride, not in plural. Called a her in Rev.19 

So there is not just one person being the bride, but many. A city

The Beast may be called a he, but represent many also.

There was seven different headship. Rev. 17 ten kings = different nation.

Ten kings destroy the Harlot City = The Beast of many turned on each other.

My thoughts on this.

 

[truth7t7]

10 hours ago, abcdef said:

The beast nation of Dan 7 is Rome, from it's beginning until the end of the horns. 

The Dan 2 iron nation is Rome from it's beginning until the toes end and the stone strikes.

The dragon beasts with 10 horns and 7 heads are all Rome.

The idea that they are not cannot be proven, because any other theory contradicts the Dan 2 & 7 timelines. 

 

You will have to show more substance than just calling me names.

 

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV

22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV

10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

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1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV

22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV

10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

Dan 11:2, Persia, the silver of the statue in Dan 2. And Greece, the brass of the statue of Dan.2.

Antiochus of Greece is the Antichrist spoken of here.

This is not the Antichrist the Jesus was referring to.

The Antichrist that Jesus spoke about was Caesar and Rome, who was Titus, who destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Antiochus did not regard the Greek Gods of his fathers.