Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[BeyondET]

On 7/28/2023 at 7:35 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Well, that's not quite true. While haa'Aadaam was not said to be immortal, HE COULD HAVE BEEN! That fact is expressed in how God chose to exile them from the Garden:

Genesis 3:21-24 (KJV)

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the LORD God said,

"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever...":

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

That's why I believe that it was a "contest," of sorts: They were told not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and that it was the tree "in the midst of the garden." However, we are NOT told that they knew where the Tree of Life was! They may not even had known of its existence! But, if they had obeyed God and eaten of every fruit of the garden WITHOUT eating from the forbidden tree, they WOULD chanced upon it and have lived forever in their obedience. But, since they DID eat from it, they had to be PROTECTED from consequences of eating from the Tree of Life in their disobedient state.

In the physical just eating of the tree of life doesn't equal man can live forever as physical being.

In order for that to happen both trees would have needed to be consumed. But not just any order the knowledge then the life.

God didn't become the end or the omega after man. Those have always been part of the phyical that wasn't created to be forever. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by BeyondET

[The Barbarian]

6 hours ago, dad2 said:

WE did not become like God by disobeying and believing Satan.

God disagrees with you:
Genesis 3:21And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.  22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

I'll take God's word on it.   Sorry.

6 hours ago, dad2 said:

The different future and past in the record of Scripture has zero to do with me. Is IS Scripture.

That's your addition to scripture.   It's neither scriptural nor supported by evidence.

But we can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence. 

6 hours ago, dad2 said:

No. You observe here and now. Always. No exceptions. From distant light streaming here, to patterns of ratios of isotopes in rocks. The rest is delusion.

Honest YE creationists disagree with you:

Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.

YE creationist Kurt Wise, Toward A Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

Your beliefs cannot take wings. They get clipped as soon as you speak here.   You add  things to make His word more acceptable to you.

Obviously Scripture does record exceptions of very long lives of men God chose to live longer, but He set the mans span at 70 regardless of what you say or choose to believe.

Why not just accept His word as it is?

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by The Barbarian

[The Barbarian]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

However, you should understand that there is a little word there that MUST BE included in one's thoughts: "As." "Adam is become AS one of us, knowing good and evil." He was not calling them "gods"; He was saying that they could now RECOGNIZE the difference between good and evil.

Pleased to see you agree with me.    That's what I said.   Thank you.

(Someone asserts that Satan, not God said that man became like God)

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

The Lord God is not Satan.   I think we've got it figured out now.   Satan is not the Lord God.   Thought you knew.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This little jab will get you in trouble. I'm letting it go, but just know that this kind of poor conduct can be reported.

I was not the one who attributed God's word to Satan.

Even very ancient humans had life spans pretty much like ours or shorter. 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

But, this is just short-sighted and a POOR interpretation of the evidence.

I would go with the finding of people who actually know how to determine age of humans.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You're not even considering the impact a worldwide, VIOLENT Flood would have both on the "geologic column"

That's been rather well investigated.   First, the Bible doesn't say the flood was worldwide, nor does the evidence show that.   Instead we see that the geologic column was laid down over billions of years by a variety of means.   Would you like to see how we know?

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

and the C-14 means of dating the fossils found within those strata!

I can't think any means where C-14 could be used on fossils in those strata.  C-14 is too short-lived to accurately date very ancient rocks.   

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

More speculation based upon uniformitarianism.

We know that the rules didn't change since creation.   God created the rules with everything tied together.   Change any major constant, and it falls into chaos and death.   God is a lot smarter than some people think He is.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Y'know, conclusions about the data we see in space, the "evidence," also requires imaginative speculation by those who call themselves scientists! NO ONE HAS BEEN THERE! NOT EVEN CLOSE! It's not the evidence we question; it's the INTERPRETATION of that evidence!

Even honest creationists admit that the evidence supports evolution and an ancient Earth.  

YE creationist Todd Wood:

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true.

...

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it.

YE creationist Todd Wood The Truth About Evolution

Here's an honest and creative way to reconcile YE doctrines with the evidence by Dr. Gerald Aardsma:

Yes, I believe there was an "ice-age". Actually, there were several ice-ages. They were all in virtual history. The last one ended about 10,000 years ago. So it doesn't enter into real history, since Creation happened just over 7,000 years ago. Since my work is designed to defend the historical truth of the Bible against charges that what it reports as history is in fact fiction, I have not had much cause to talk about the ice-ages so far. (In my understanding of virtual history and the past, one can just accept what the scientists specializing in these fields are telling everyone is their best understanding/reconstruction of these past events. These reconstructions do not attack the historical integrity of the Bible in any way once one understands the concept of virtual history.)

Actually, I think there is enormous evidence of biological evolution (meaning extensive changes to flaura and fauna)---again, in virtual history. Note that the Bible does not say that biological evolution CAN NOT happen; it says that biological evolution DID NOT happen. That is, the Bible clearly teaches that we got here by CREATION, not by EVOLUTION. "In the beginning God CREATED the heavens and the earth", not "In the beginning God EVOLVED the heavens and the earth." But none of this excludes the possibility of biological evolution in virtual history. In fact, the teaching in Romans 8:20, that the creation was subjected to futility at the time of the Fall, meshes rather well with evolution being the thing seen in the virtual history data, for the hallmark of evolution is not purpose, but random chance and meaninglessness.

The Grand Canyon should also be understood just as the standard scientists describe its formation. It too is a virtual history phenomenon.

Virtual history is not a hard idea. Just think about what it means to actually CREATE something. Creating a story is a helpful analogy. Take "The Hobbit" as an example of a created entity. Now step into the book with Bilbo on page one and begin to examine the world around you. Everything you see and examine around you has already, on page one, an extensive built-in virtual history. Bilbo is in his 50's as I recall. So he has a virtual history. His house has been dug back into the hill, implying someone did some digging. If you examine the tunnels you can no doubt find tool marks left by the workmen. His front door is made of wood, implying trees grown, sawn into planks, planed, and fastened together by craftsmen, all before the story begins. And on and on it goes...Bilbo's clothing with all those stitches, and the soil in his yard and garden with humus from long-dead leaves, ...

We are living in a CREATION. The creation we are living in is a story of God's making. It opens on page one 5176+/-26 B.C. (by my best reckoning so far). The story moves from Creation to Fall to Flood to Exodus to Birth of Christ to Crucifixion to Redemption to ultimate Restoration of all things. This story is our reality, but it is not ultimate reality. (God is ultimate reality---He transcends the story just as any author transcends their created story.) And like any story, it has, necessarily, a virtual history built in from page one onward.

The big take-home point is that evidence of virtual history---of even millions or billions of years of this or that process operating in the past---does not and cannot falsify the fact of creation in a created entity. So we can let the virtual history data about the Grand Canyon or the ice ages or whatever else speak for itself and say whatever it seems to say. We do not have to resort to foolishness (e.g., denying the validity of tree-ring calibrated radiocarbon dates) to try to wipe out every trace of any natural process prior to the biblical date of Creation. We understand virtual history to be part and parcel of any created thing, so evidences of such processes do not threaten our faith or falsify the Bible's claim that we got here by supernatural creation just over 7000 years ago.

Sincerely,
Dr. Aardsma

 

[dad2]

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

God disagrees with you:
Genesis 3:21And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.  22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

I'll take God's word on it.   Sorry.

You think Adam improved and became godlike when he disobeyed? No. He was far far from God after that. The enemy of God, basically. Why? Because he disobeyed and got dunked in evil and believing Satan when God wanted man to have some time first ruling earth and learning and coming to know Him first. You see, God can handle anything. We could not in those first days of being created. So He had to die a horrible death for us, to get us able to be with Him again.

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But we can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence. 

Slogans won't help you. I know for a fact that science can do no such foolish thing. Apparently you do not know your limits.

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Honest YE creationists disagree with you:

How many that actually believe what God said? How many of those believe there was a flood, and people living the time the bible records, a real Adam and Eve etc? My guess is zero. Perhaps you could phrase it something like this.. 'My fellow unbelievers, pretending to believe disagree with you'?

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed

In other words they slot new fossils into the Darwin dream scheme. A better way to look at new species that are found might be something like this 'Because evolving and adapting was super fast in that different former nature, of course we find variations of created kinds' etc. Or maybe something like this 'Some created kinds were quite similar to each other, and we are ignorant of that, so we instead classify any new similar fossil as being a result of evolution only' etc

I have my own religion, thank you very much.

 

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Obviously Scripture does record exceptions of very long lives of men God chose to live longer, but He set the mans span at 70 regardless of what you say or choose to believe.

 

I see, so EVERYONE in Genesis before the tower of Babel was graced by God with 'exceptionally' extra long lives??! Hilarious. Especially since all men save Noah and co were wicked and destroyed by Good in the flood!

Your choice to ignore and outright disbelieve the record of lifespans in the bible, and try to default to David's day when maybe it was close to just 70 years is, again, obstinate, flagrant unbelief.

They used to say 'either pee or get off the pot'. I would say to nominal believers in Scripture (whether actually saved or not) that they should either believe what Scripture says about beginnings, or stop sitting there pretending all day and move on to other aspects of life. If all people can believe in is Jesus and that He died for us and is God, well, fine. When they pretend to believe the whole bible and disgrace the cause by showing otherwise, that is a different matter.

[The Barbarian]

God disagrees with you:
Genesis 3:21And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.  22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

I'll take God's word on it.   Sorry.

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

You think Adam improved and became godlike when he disobeyed?

That's not what God said.  Stop trying to put words in His mouth.

We can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence.  Slogans won't help you.   Evidence will.

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

I know for a fact that science can do no such foolish thing.

Knowledgable YE creationists disagree with you:

Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.

YE creationist Kurt Wise, Toward A Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

In other words they slot new fossils into the Darwin dream scheme. A better way to look at new species that are found might be something like this 'Because evolving and adapting was super fast in that different former nature, of course we find variations of created kinds' etc.

The new religion of YE creationism has some followers who say that.  But even many of them remain devoted Christians.

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

I have my own religion, thank you very much.

Suit yourself.  Obviously Scripture does record exceptions of very long lives of men God chose to live longer

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

I see, so EVERYONE in Genesis before the tower of Babel was graced by God with 'exceptionally' extra long lives??!

God indicates a few of them did.   Why not just believe it God's way?  Your choice to ignore and outright disbelieve God's allotment of lifespans in the bible, to about 70 years, is unfortunate.    I would say to such nominal believers in Scripture (whether actually saved or not) that they should either believe what Scripture says about beginnings, or stop sitting there pretending all day and move on to other aspects of life.  When they pretend to believe the whole bible and disgrace the cause by showing otherwise, that is a different matter.

 

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Pleased to see you agree with me.    That's what I said.   Thank you.

(Someone asserts that Satan, not God said that man became like God)

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

The Lord God is not Satan.   I think we've got it figured out now.   Satan is not the Lord God.   Thought you knew.

Shalom, The Barbarian.

For someone who LISTENS to Satan's lies all the time, I'm surprised you can even know the difference! The man DID become as God, knowing good and evil; however, it was a CHEAT! The only way he could know the difference was by becoming disobedient and a sinner! Then, being evil, he could see the difference: God is good, and he - a man - was evil. It's rather IRONIC!

HaSatan (which is Hebrew for "The Enemy") gave them an INCOMPLETE picture of the end result of eating from the forbidden tree! Being the "father of lies," the most effective lie is a HALF-TRUTH! Telling one as much of the truth as necessary to encourage them to buy the lie, will confuse the listener and encourage him or her to buy into the lie. It's VERY MUCH like the evolutionists do! There ARE sometimes when radiometric dating methods give dates that are very close to the true dates given by other historical data. HOWEVER, there's just enough truth mixed in to confuse people to buy into the LIE that radiometric dating methods are right all of the time, or even MOST of the time! (They're not.)

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I was not the one who attributed God's word to Satan.

Nor did dad2.

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Even very ancient humans had life spans pretty much like ours or shorter. 

This is a LIE! It DIRECTLY contradicts God's RECORD of the world before the Flood!

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I would go with the finding of people who actually know how to determine age of humans.

Really? When they disagree with Scripture, how can they POSSIBLY "know how to determine age of humans?"

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

That's been rather well investigated.   First, the Bible doesn't say the flood was worldwide, nor does the evidence show that.  

Well, THAT'S not true! "Well investigated," indeed! Humph! You DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT! The Bible SAYS POINT-BLANK that the Flood was global!

Genesis 7:1-24 (KJV)

1 And the LORD said unto Noah,

"Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens (a dual number; therefore, 14), the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens (again, a dual number = 14), the male and the female; TO KEEP SEED ALIVE UPON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH. 4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and EVERY LIVING SUBSTANCE THAT I HAVE MADE WILL I DESTROY FROM OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH."

5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. 7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, THE SAME DAY WERE ALL THE FOUNTAINS OF THE GREAT DEEP BROKEN UP, AND THE WINDOWS OF HEAVEN WERE OPENED. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And ALL FLESH DIED THAT MOVED UPON THE EARTH, BOTH OF FOWL, AND OF CATTLE, AND OF BEAST, AND OF EVERY CREEPING THING THAT CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH, AND EVERY MAN: 22 ALL IN WHOSE NOSTRILS WAS THE BREATH OF LIFE, OF ALL THAT WAS IN THE DRY LAND, DIED. 23 And EVERY LIVING SUBSTANCE WAS DESTROYED WHICH WAS UPON THE FACE OF THE GROUND, BOTH MAN, AND CATTLE, AND THE CREEPING THINGS, AND THE FOWL OF THE HEAVEN; AND THEY WERE DESTROYED FROM THE EARTH: AND NOAH ONLY REMAINED ALIVE, AND THEY THAT WERE WITH HIM IN THE ARK. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

"ALL" means ALL! There was not a man, a land animal, or a bird that survived if they were not aboard the ark! If this was a "local flood," as some believe, why didn't God just have them MOVE to where the flood wouldn't affect them?! After all, they had 120 years to move! Can't you see the IDIOCY in saying it was a "mere local flood"? It's STUPIDITY!

Furthermore, a Flood of this magnitude is NOT going to be "tranquil!" It couldn't be tranquil if it tried to be! This Flood was COLOSSAL!

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Instead we see that the geologic column was laid down over billions of years by a variety of means.   Would you like to see how we know?

I KNOW how you believe you THINK you know! But, in following the antitheistic, naturalistic worldview, you've CUT YOURSELVES OFF from the alternative worldview and a more reasonable interpretation of the SAME evidence!

For instance, after "SIX MILLION years," there wouldn't be much of the Grand Canyon that wasn't worn away by wind erosion, especially if the formation was cut so slowly by the Colorado River during that time! No, the Grand Canyon is best understood as having been cut QUICKLY by the run-off from the remnants of the Flood!

And, Carlsbad Caverns wasn't cut so slowly either! It didn't take 200 MILLION years! I've SEEN limestone stalactite growth under the eaves of brand new buildings that had already grown six to eight inches in length, right here in Central Florida! "Permian period!" What a JOKE!

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I can't think any means where C-14 could be used on fossils in those strata.  C-14 is too short-lived to accurately date very ancient rocks.

Yeah, C-14 is used on organic material and only has an estimated half-life of 5,730 years, meaning that it wouldn't be possible to get ages more than 10,000 years from C-14 testing. On the other hand, there are many other methods for dating materials, and ALL of them are BOUND by the EXPECTATIONS of the naturalistic, uniformitarian viewpoint. "It can't be otherwise, because it's not what we expect to see in the evidence!"

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

We know that the rules didn't change since creation.   God created the rules with everything tied together.   Change any major constant, and it falls into chaos and death.   God is a lot smarter than some people think He is.

Nah, God DID change the rules between the world before the Flood and the world after the Flood. And, they were SIGNIFICANT changes! Before the Flood, all of the land animals were herbivores. After the Flood, some animals were changed into carnivores.

Before the Flood, there was a canopy of water that filtered the radiation from the sun better than it is today. So, the people and the animals lived twelve to thirteen times longer before the Flood than they do today.

Before the Flood, the vegetation was lush and abundant; after the Flood, the vegetation was much more scarce and had less nutrients. This is also why Noach and his family were allowed to eat meat, when before the Flood they only ate fruits and herbs.

Before the Flood, the temperature was faily uniform around the earth. After the Flood, there were initially HUGE variations in global temperatures, very high temperatures near the equator, and very low temperatures in the polar regions.

Before the Flood, the air pressure was greater sandwiched between the two layers of water, allowing some flying reptiles to fly whereas they would not be able to fly today. After the Flood, the air pressure was lessened as the gases of the atmosphere expanded to fill the void where the waters above the atmosphere used to be.

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Even honest creationists admit that the evidence supports evolution and an ancient Earth.

Honest or not, these creationists have been DUPED by the evolutionary INTERPRETATIONS of the evidence, and you're always quoting a small set of such "creationists!"

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

YE creationist Todd Wood:

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true.

He is saying these things because he's "bitten into the fruit!" There's absolutely NO EXCUSE for putting the "scientific explanations" on a higher pedestal than the Word of God, and God's Word does NOT support these "scientific explanations." Furthermore, these are NOT "scientific" at all! There's NO WAY they could use observation and experimentation on unobservable and non-duplicatable events! It's all "blowing smoke!"

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

...

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory.

Actually, it's not "scientific" at all. It's just "sciency!" There IS evidence, but not for evolution. It is merely INTERPRETED that way!

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence.

OH! I beg to differ! It is SERIOUSLY FLAWED in 8 different ways!

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it.

YE creationist Todd Wood The Truth About Evolution

HIS version of the truth, maybe, but it is certainly NOT GOD'S truth!

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Here's an honest and creative way to reconcile YE doctrines with the evidence by Dr. Gerald Aardsma:

Yes, I believe there was an "ice-age". Actually, there were several ice-ages. They were all in virtual history. The last one ended about 10,000 years ago. So it doesn't enter into real history, since Creation happened just over 7,000 years ago. Since my work is designed to defend the historical truth of the Bible against charges that what it reports as history is in fact fiction, I have not had much cause to talk about the ice-ages so far. (In my understanding of virtual history and the past, one can just accept what the scientists specializing in these fields are telling everyone is their best understanding/reconstruction of these past events. These reconstructions do not attack the historical integrity of the Bible in any way once one understands the concept of virtual history.)

Actually, I think there is enormous evidence of biological evolution (meaning extensive changes to flaura and fauna)---again, in virtual history. Note that the Bible does not say that biological evolution CAN NOT happen; it says that biological evolution DID NOT happen. That is, the Bible clearly teaches that we got here by CREATION, not by EVOLUTION. "In the beginning God CREATED the heavens and the earth", not "In the beginning God EVOLVED the heavens and the earth." But none of this excludes the possibility of biological evolution in virtual history. In fact, the teaching in Romans 8:20, that the creation was subjected to futility at the time of the Fall, meshes rather well with evolution being the thing seen in the virtual history data, for the hallmark of evolution is not purpose, but random chance and meaninglessness.

The Grand Canyon should also be understood just as the standard scientists describe its formation. It too is a virtual history phenomenon.

Virtual history is not a hard idea. Just think about what it means to actually CREATE something. Creating a story is a helpful analogy. Take "The Hobbit" as an example of a created entity. Now step into the book with Bilbo on page one and begin to examine the world around you. Everything you see and examine around you has already, on page one, an extensive built-in virtual history. Bilbo is in his 50's as I recall. So he has a virtual history. His house has been dug back into the hill, implying someone did some digging. If you examine the tunnels you can no doubt find tool marks left by the workmen. His front door is made of wood, implying trees grown, sawn into planks, planed, and fastened together by craftsmen, all before the story begins. And on and on it goes...Bilbo's clothing with all those stitches, and the soil in his yard and garden with humus from long-dead leaves, ...

We are living in a CREATION. The creation we are living in is a story of God's making. It opens on page one 5176+/-26 B.C. (by my best reckoning so far). The story moves from Creation to Fall to Flood to Exodus to Birth of Christ to Crucifixion to Redemption to ultimate Restoration of all things. This story is our reality, but it is not ultimate reality. (God is ultimate reality---He transcends the story just as any author transcends their created story.) And like any story, it has, necessarily, a virtual history built in from page one onward.

The big take-home point is that evidence of virtual history---of even millions or billions of years of this or that process operating in the past---does not and cannot falsify the fact of creation in a created entity. So we can let the virtual history data about the Grand Canyon or the ice ages or whatever else speak for itself and say whatever it seems to say. We do not have to resort to foolishness (e.g., denying the validity of tree-ring calibrated radiocarbon dates) to try to wipe out every trace of any natural process prior to the biblical date of Creation. We understand virtual history to be part and parcel of any created thing, so evidences of such processes do not threaten our faith or falsify the Bible's claim that we got here by supernatural creation just over 7000 years ago.

Sincerely,
Dr. Aardsma

 

This person is not being faithful to the Scriptures with his "virtual history" nonsense. It's simply ridiculous and unnecessary..

[dad2]

8 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

 

That's not what God said.  Stop trying to put words in His mouth. We can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence.  Slogans won't help you.   Evidence will.

 

Knowledgable YE creationists disagree with you:

Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.

YE creationist Kurt Wise, Toward A Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

The new religion of YE creationism has some followers who say that.  But even many of them remain devoted Christians.

Suit yourself.  Obviously Scripture does record exceptions of very long lives of men God chose to live longer

God indicates a few of them did.   Why not just believe it God's way?  Your choice to ignore and outright disbelieve God's allotment of lifespans in the bible, to about 70 years, is unfortunate.    I would say to such nominal believers in Scripture (whether actually saved or not) that they should either believe what Scripture says about beginnings, or stop sitting there pretending all day and move on to other aspects of life.  When they pretend to believe the whole bible and disgrace the cause by showing otherwise, that is a different matter.

 

Put up or remain exposed as being wrong that science can observe laws millions of years ago and know the lifespans of men in Adam's day.

[The Barbarian]

6 hours ago, dad2 said:

Put up or remain exposed as being wrong that science can observe laws millions of years ago

Meet Oklo, the Earth’s Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor

https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/meet-oklo-the-earths-two-billion-year-old-only-known-natural-nuclear-reactor

The reaction products show us the half-life of radioactive materials for that time.   And that shows us that the speed of light was the same then as it is now.   And by those two constants, we know that chemical reactions were the same as they are now.  Which means things like climate, weather, evaporation, etc. all worked as they did now.

6 hours ago, dad2 said:

and know the lifespans of men in Adam's day.

That was God's word.   If His word isn't good enough for you, science can't help you.    Just accept His word as it is, and this won't bother you any more.

 

[The Barbarian]

On 7/31/2023 at 10:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

However, you should understand that there is a little word there that MUST BE included in one's thoughts: "As." "Adam is become AS one of us, knowing good and evil." He was not calling them "gods"; He was saying that they could now RECOGNIZE the difference between good and evil.

But as I showed Dad, that's not what God said.   I quoted Him saying that Adam had become like Him.    I believe Him.  You should, too.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

HaSatan (which is Hebrew for "The Enemy") gave them an INCOMPLETE picture of the end result of eating from the forbidden tree! Being the "father of lies," the most effective lie is a HALF-TRUTH!

That's what I told Dad, but he refused to believe it.   Satan is a specialist in deceiving us by telling part of the  truth.   As God confirms, Adam did become like Him.   But not being able to be truly good, it was a disaster for Adam and his descendants.   I am pleased to know you see this.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

For someone who LISTENS to Satan's lies all the time, I'm surprised you can even know the difference!

 I just showed Dad how satan lies.    Or did you mean to say that to Dad?

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's VERY MUCH like the evolutionists do! There ARE sometimes when radiometric dating methods give dates that are very close to the true dates given by other historical data.

That's why scientists accept it.    Physics isn't a matter of chance.   It works by knowable laws.   But as you suggest, there are ways to mess up such testing.   There are entire books about things that need to be controlled to avoid errors.

One of the most important ways to know how accurate these tests are, is the concordance of different isotope dating results.   So is the isochron method that correlates ages with the remaining daughter isotopes.    It works and it works very well.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

ALL of them are BOUND by the EXPECTATIONS of the naturalistic, uniformitarian viewpoint. "It can't be otherwise, because it's not what we expect to see in the evidence!"

If you really think that, then you know almost nothing about physics and radioisotopes.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Nah, God DID change the rules between the world before the Flood and the world after the Flood.

Fortunately, we have evidence showing otherwise.  Would you like to learn about some of it?   And of course, scripture never says that God changed the laws of nature after a flood.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Before the Flood, all of the land animals were herbivores. After the Flood, some animals were changed into carnivores.

Again, no evidence or scriptural support for such a belief.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Before the Flood, there was a canopy of water that filtered the radiation from the sun better than it is today.

Such a canopy would have blacked out the sun.   Even two hundred feet of water means no photosynthesis can take place at that level or deeper.   And at the altitudes necessary to keep water in orbit, the pressure is such that water can exist only as ice or vapor.   

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Before the Flood, the vegetation was lush and abundant; after the Flood, the vegetation was much more scarce and had less nutrients. This is also why Noach and his family were allowed to eat meat, when before the Flood they only ate fruits and herbs.

Where does scripture say that Noah only ate plants before the flood?

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Before the Flood, the air pressure was greater sandwiched between the two layers of water, allowing some flying reptiles to fly whereas they would not be able to fly today.

Scientists built a model of a pterosaur.  It flies well.   There are birds with higher wing loading today, and they fly just fine.   I'd be willing to look at your calculations, though.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He is saying these things because he's "bitten into the fruit!" There's absolutely NO EXCUSE for putting the "scientific explanations" on a higher pedestal than the Word of God,

In fact, Dr. Wood is putting his interpretation (YE) of God's word above science.   He's just honest enough to admit that there is a great deal of evidence for evolution.  He just puts his religious ideas above the evidence.   He notes that evolutionary theory is not flawed.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

OH! I beg to differ! It is SERIOUSLY FLAWED in 8 different ways!

Dr. Wood actually knows the theory and the evidence.   But I'd be happy to look at your 8 ways.   What do you have?

(YE creationist Gerald Ardsma's way of dealing with the evidence, compared to YE)

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This person is not being faithful to the Scriptures with his "virtual history" nonsense. It's simply ridiculous and unnecessary..

It's an  honest attempt to reconcile his YE beliefs with the evidence.    His integrity keeps him from denying the facts.

 

 

[dad2]

12 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Meet Oklo, the Earth’s Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor

https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/meet-oklo-the-earths-two-billion-year-old-only-known-natural-nuclear-reactor

The reaction products show us the half-life of radioactive materials for that time.   And that shows us that the speed of light was the same then as it is now.   And by those two constants, we know that chemical reactions were the same as they are now.  Which means things like climate, weather, evaporation, etc. all worked as they did now.

That was God's word.   If His word isn't good enough for you, science can't help you.    Just accept His word as it is, and this won't bother you any more.

 

False. That story was concocted to try to explain materials that a reaction left. The only way they could explain it using present nature and laws was by that elaborate story. Wholly made up of course. Also as foolish as can be. The magic elevator ride for one thing. Just when they need it to happen in their scenario the sites at Oklo were dunked miles under the earth. For no apparent reason and with zero proof. Then, as needed, magically, when the reactions that had to go on down there were just right, presto! Up to the surface it comes to complete the rest of the sequence needed. Hilarious. No wonder the whole site was drowned underwater years ago! Who can check now?