Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[ChristB4us]

14 hours ago, Tristen said:

@FreeGrace & @The Barbarian

Sorry to but-in to your conversation uninvited.

You've covered this somewhat already, but the Hebrew of Genesis 2:17 would more accurately be translated "in dying, you will die", and not "you shall surely die". The latter interpretation is a translation choice, and not a direct transliteration.

The wording is ambiguous, leading to much scholarly debate about what this passage actually means.

If we are being honest, apart from personal faith, no one can really claim to know what this wording means - except to say that it does not mean that Adam would take his last physical breath on that day.

It could, however, still mean a physical death - in the same sense that a flower cut from the plant still shows all the signs of life, though it has now transferred from growth to decay - even if the time of decay can be extended by putting the flower cutting in nutrient water (i.e. it is both 'technically' dead, but also in the process of death from the moment it was cut off from the parental plant).

Or it could mean spiritual death - being cut off from the breath/life/spirit of God.

Or it could mean both (or something else).

Arguments therefore have to be made from alternative verses of scripture - since no honest contributor can claim exclusive, dogmatic knowledge of how to correctly interpret Genesis 2:17. Anyone who insinuates that only their preferred interpretation is correct is being disingenuous with the available information.

I believe the analogy of the cut flower is apt.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

You've just assumed what you proposed to prove.

I showed you what God says.   What do you have to top Him?

You only showed what the translators wrote, which wasn't literal.    Didn't you bother reading what Tristen wrote on the previous page, post #7?  You have no case.

Let it go, please.

8 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

So until you can show that the one death God spoke of was really two deaths, and that Jesus only managed to save us from one of them, you're not doing very well.

Yep.  God says that the one death He mentions would happen that day.   And it did.  But as you now see, it was a spiritual death, not a physical one.   And Jesus saved us from that spiritual death, not a physical one.   Why not just let it be God's way?

Yep. Adam was never immortal.  Indeed God expresses concern that he might become so, and takes steps to be sure that he never did.  The death God spoke of was to happen that day.    If God tells the truth, we know that the death was not a physical one.  Case closed.

You're just not letting any facts in.   I think we're done here.

I know we're done here.  I have ALREADY acknowleged that Adam's death on THAT day was spiritual, but you won't admit that the aging process that finally killed him also began on THAT day.

So, yes, we ARE done here.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

I believe the analogy of the cut flower is apt.

Amen.  Adam died spiritually that day and began the dying process we call aging.

[The Barbarian]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I know we're done here.  I have ALREADY acknowleged that Adam's death on THAT day was spiritual, but you won't admit that the aging process that finally killed him also began on THAT day.

As God admits in Gen. 3, Adam was never immortal.   So he aged like everyone else.  But the one death God mentioned, the one that Jesus saved us from, was not a physical death.

It's very clear.   If Jesus died to save us from physical death, He failed.   But that wasn't the death God was talking about to Adam.   It was a spiritual death only.

 

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

As God admits in Gen. 3, Adam was never immortal.   So he aged like everyone else.

Speculation.  Again.

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

  But the one death God mentioned, the one that Jesus saved us from, was not a physical death.

Again, that's the whole problem.  In the Hebrew, there are 2 deaths mentioned.

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It's very clear.   If Jesus died to save us from physical death, He failed.   But that wasn't the death God was talking about to Adam.   It was a spiritual death only.

I never said Jesus died to save us from physical death.  That isn't even sane.  So why even bring up what I never said?

On "that day", the ONLY DEATH was spiritual.  Are you even listening?

[The Barbarian]

As God admits in Gen. 3, Adam was never immortal.   So he aged like everyone else.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Speculation.  Again.

God doesn't speculate.    It says exactly what He meant.  And it's true.    But the one death God mentioned, the one that Jesus saved us from, was not a physical death.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Again, that's the whole problem.

For those who want to convert it to a physical death, yes.   For those willing to take it as it is, no.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

In the Hebrew, there are 2 deaths mentioned.

Nope.  Just one.  And we know that a repetition in Hebrew like this is for emphasis, not to add another thing.   This is further confirmed by God's word in Genesis 3 when He acknowledges that Adam was never immortal, and by the fact that that death Jesus saved us from, is a spiritual death, not a physical one.   There's really no way to add physical death to this, without denying what God says.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I never said Jesus died to save us from physical death.  That isn't even sane.  So why even bring up what I never said?

But God says that Jesus came to save us from that death that Adam died that day.   Why not just accept it?

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

On "that day", the ONLY DEATH was spiritual.

And since we have God's word that the death would happen that day, we can only conclude that it was one spiritual death.    Adding another one to happen later is a direct contradiction to God's word.

 

[FreeGrace]

22 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

As God admits in Gen. 3, Adam was never immortal.   So he aged like everyone else.

That's why He put the "Tree of Life" in the garden, for A&E to eat.  And that's why they were kicked out of the garden and access to that tree.  So he began to die physically on THAT day he was kicked out of the garden.  Thanks for supporting my point.

22 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

God doesn't speculate.

So, why do you?

22 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It says exactly what He meant.  And it's true.

Right.  "on THAT day, dying, you shall die".  

22 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But the one death God mentioned, the one that Jesus saved us from, was not a physical death.

Why keep promoting FAKE NEWS?  There wasn't "one death" mentioned in that verse.

22 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Nope.  Just one.

Stubborn, I see.  There were 2.  Clearly.  And Hebrews scholars admit it.

22 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

  And we know that a repetition in Hebrew like this is for emphasis, not to add another thing.

You should have read what Tristen posted on p.41.  The 7th post, I think.

22 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But God says that Jesus came to save us from that death that Adam died that day.   Why not just accept it?

I have already made that very clear.  Yes, Adam's death that day was spiritual.  But, of course, it seems you don't actually read my posts, but rather make up stuff that I don't believe nor have said, or even suggested.

22 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

And since we have God's word that the death would happen that day, we can only conclude that it was one spiritual death.    Adding another one to happen later is a direct contradiction to God's word.

That's right.  One spiritual death "on THAT day" and that was the day that his physical death (dying) began.

Your view reduces the meaning of words to rubble.  You have "dying" and "death" as being the same thing.  But everyone knows the difference, except you.

Dying is a process that occurs over time.  Death is very specific to a point in time.

Learn that, and Gen 2:17 is no longer problematic for you.

I would suggest just one thing here.  Because of the MANY errors and false claims you've made about my posts, and the obvious embarrassment that SHOULD be felt,  but apparently isn't, let's just call it quits here.  You haven't done anything to convince me of your views, ESP given all your false claims/etc.  And I have simply posted the truth of the verse.  

So, let's just leave it at that, ok?  You've added nothing to support your opinion anyway.

[The Barbarian]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That's why He put the "Tree of Life" in the garden, for A&E to eat.  And that's why they were kicked out of the garden and access to that tree.

Quite possibly.    Some people have concluded so. 

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So he began to die physically on THAT day he was kicked out of the garden.

Because, as God says in Genesis 3, Adam was not immortal.  Physical death was not caused by eating from the tree; it was caused in your speculation, by God keeping him out of the Garden.   But spiritual death was exactly the consequence of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.    Thanks for supporting my point.

 God doesn't speculate.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So, why do you?

See above.   I'm just taking it as He said it.   Your speculation is that Adam could have stayed in the Garden and lived there forever.   But that suggests that God is not omnipotent, since the fall would then have surprised God.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Right.  "on THAT day, dying, you shall die".  

One death.   A spiritual one.  The one death God mentioned, the one that Jesus saved us from, was not a physical death.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There wasn't "one death" mentioned in that verse.

Just one.   Not two.   God says that Jesus came to save us from that death that Adam died that day.   Why not just accept it?

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I have already made that very clear.  Yes, Adam's death that day was spiritual.  But, of course, it seems you don't actually read my posts, but rather make up stuff that I don't believe nor have said, or even suggested.

I'm looking at them, and as you see, Jesus did not save us from physical death.   We all die physically.   He saved us, as God says in Scripture, from the death Adam brought into the world.   And that was, as God shows you, a spiritual death, not a physical one.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Your view reduces the meaning of words to rubble.  You have "dying" and "death" as being the same thing.  But everyone knows the difference, except you.

As you know the use of repetition in Hebrew to accentuate a statement does not mean it happened twice.   And Jesus makes this clear, since He saved us from a spiritual death, not a physical one.   If you can trust God, that death was only spiritual; as you seem to realize, Adam was never immortal.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I would suggest just one thing here.  Because of the MANY errors and false claims you've made about my posts, and the obvious embarrassment that SHOULD be felt,  but apparently isn't, let's just call it quits here.

I don't think your false claims are lies, and while neither of us is likely to change our view, a continuing discussion may be useful for others here, many of whom don't even take part in the discussion.    Let iron sharpen iron.  

[NConly]

14 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Right.  "on THAT day, dying, you shall die".  

If one looks this with 11 Peter 3:8 in mind Adam died in that day.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, NConly said:

If one looks this with 11 Peter 3:8 in mind Adam died in that day.

He sure did!