New Wine in Old Wineskins (clergy/laity system)

[Ray12614]

5 hours ago, Marathoner said:

That brings me to something I haven't shared before, and that's this:

There's an appointed time for every matter under heaven.

I continued to process my departure from that fellowship for many years, struggling with a conflict between the will and purpose of the Lord and what seemed right in my own eyes. I couldn't reconcile what happened with what I had experienced during my first two years among hundreds of saints I knew and loved. The dissonance shattered when I realized that the Lord accomplishes His purpose in spite of the weakness of men and women --- we, being weak and sometimes foolish, are chosen by Him after all --- so I came to embrace that the time without hierarchy establishing itself served His purpose well. Once the Lord accomplished His purpose, the fellowship dispersed. 

The "eldest elder" traveled to another continent where He preaches the Gospel in a place where Christians are martyred. He put his knowledge of farming and construction to good use, helping the saints in that dangerous place become self-sufficient. One of my beloved and closest friends in that fellowship joined him for a time. My old friend and teacher became a published author, writing about Church history (that was always his passion). 

As for me? That's something for another time.  

Hi. I have 45+ years of being a Christian and serving Jesus as best I know how. Along the way I have picked up some take-away nuggets that I learned along the way while I have made almost every mistake that can be made.

The NT Holy Spirit filled local church is comprised of parts of the Body of Christ that should be working together (1Cor 12-13). Not any one part is 'better' than the other parts, but, some parts have more responsibility/visibility than other parts. It does not make them 'higher', but, lower in terms of serving the other parts of the body. The ministry team should have the Eph 4 gifts of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, and Pastor/Teacher (graham sharp rule). If you want to split this into 5 fold ministry by separating Pastor and Teacher, that is okay, I won't be contentious about it. If some want to say some of those gifts have 'passed-away' as some do, then the whole burden of ministry is layed on the Pastor/Teacher, which is in my opinion is not what we read in scripture.

When the Gift offices (external and locally) are in the house and working together for the benefit of the body of Christ the power of the Holy Spirit is manifested among His church local. When the entire burden of ministry is placed on the Pastor/Teacher who is controlled by a local church administrative board, then the devil has a much easier time deceiving and dividing the church members and leadership. Everybody wants to do what is right in their own eyes instead of yielding to the Eph 4 leadership Gifts flowing the the power of the Holy Spirit.

BUT, when God's people gather together for corporate worship and teaching and ministry to each other in love by the Power of the Holy Spirit flowing among the people and the Eph 4 gifts are allowed to minister, encourage, exhort to good works, and under the unction of the Holy Spirit . . . . it is such a sweet atmosphere of love and power . . . . so much so that the people don't want to leave .

Not every service I attend is like that, but, many are, and I would not trade those precious times for anything . . . 

Anyway, that is my 2 cents worth of opinion.

Grace and Peace . . . Ray . . . 

 

[Vine Abider]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

As the denominations have to more and more bow to the laws of man, (different genders and sexual preferences etc) and organisers of the public meetings bring in more control then people are voting with their feet and leaving. However, because believers have mostly been conditioned into large gatherings or having someone in control, the believers are not sure what to do. I read about people dissatisfied with their public meeting group and looking for a better one, but not really finding it. 

Thus, may I share what the Lord has led us into over our way - a relational network. I`ll post it in a different box with the scriptures involved.

regards, Marilyn.

Yes, as you point out, man's system is an organization which responds to man's things.  And then control has to come in.

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Man`s organizations have served somewhat over the years to help people, however; it is mainly like school where people are organized and in groups. God`s relational network however grows people and can flourish anywhere without large overheads and those in control. The discipler needs to understand that they are to help their disciple grow and that takes time and energy and prayer and much relating. The public meeting has the numbers but takes the joy from the believer in being fruitful.

regards, Marilyn.

 

Agreed. Organizations control.  But organisms grow in life and the members of the body are related to one another in the life of the one Spirit shared.

12 hours ago, Marathoner said:

The clergy/laity structure is a terrible thing indeed. 

I agree.  Structure = organization = man's efforts = flesh

8 hours ago, Roymond said:

It can be -- it isn't necessarily.

And humans being human, if we didn't already have it it would get invented.

There is certainly a LOT of good that has come out of individuals in the clergy/laity structure - God is able to use it all!  And I appreciate many who are in the clergy (with various "titles") as they often do have a good walk with the Lord.  But the system inherently does certain things. Organizations are always opposed to organisms, which is how the bible relates what the ekklesia is:  a vine, a body, God's farm, etc.  Even the building/temple of God is referred to as "living stones."

Here is what the structure does ultimately - it sets up a class of those who have responsibilities.  Others seeing those with responsibilities let them do it.  The leadership class then takes on more and more, while the follower class does less and less. The followers look to the leaders to do things, and in the process the followers get weaker.  It is up to someone else to speak the word, to lead the worship & music, to setup outreaches, to take care of the saints needs and the church property, etc. & etc.  So the followers pay tithes to keep it all going, while their own spiritual functioning gets suppressed.

Sure, there are some groups that do a better job with getting the so-called "laity" involved, but overall (in my experience and view) the structure suppresses much of the function of the body. 

[Marilyn C]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:04 PM, Roymond said:

The "clergy/laity system" started with Paul appointing elders and making Timothy a bishop to appoint  more elders.  Elder in Greek is "presbys", and as people in the West spoke less and less Greek that got  mispronounced; that's the nominative form and the rest have a "t" in them, e.g. "presbyteros", and if you start dropping syllables but keep consonants it rather quickly becomes "presbteros" which is hard to say so it became "presterous" and later in the Latin-based languages became "prebst" while in Germanic-based it tended to become "prester" or "prister" but then after the Norman conquest the Norman version and Saxon version converged to "priest".  So in linguistic terms the church has always had priests, it's just that the institution has changed over the centuries.

"Bishop" was originally another word for presbyter, but as churches grew they needed a chief presbyter both as head elder and to organize the churches in one city (I recall an estimate that in the year 200 there were thirty different churches in Rome, with maybe one hundred and some members each, and being humans they had squabbles so a head supervisor was needed).  Since "bishop" -- episkopos -- meant both "supervisor" and "shepherd", that title was shifted to mean the one whose job was to keep things going smoothly between the local churches, though it also drew on the fact that Jesus was referred to as the episkopos of our souls.

Hi Roymond,

Good to bring up that point about the elders. Now, because we have mostly seen those in authority as `over ` others, especially in the world, then that is the example we tend to think of. However, Jesus said -

`You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet is shall NOT be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. ` (Matt. 20: 25 & 26)

We see that Jesus is showing the opposite from the world`s way of operating. So, we ask ourselves how does it work with elders appointed. Let`s look at Paul, Timothy and Silvanus working amongst the believers.

`Paul, Silvanus and Timothy......we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes he own children....remember, brethren, our labour and toil, for labouring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you,....

You are witnesses and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe; as you know how we exhorted, and comforted, and charged everyone of you, as a father does his own children...` (1 Thess. 1: 1,  2: 7 - 11)

These men in authority worked among the believers so they saw their behaviour, and attitude - as a nursing mother and caring father; they also worked to pay their own way so as not be a burden to the believers.

The criteria for an elder is moral character whereas today a leader of an organisation would need to be a CEO, with the ability to oversee all the operating of it. This involves, managing buildings, maintenance, hiring staff, organising people to look after the grounds and attend to the operating of a public meeting - with insurance, equipment, obeying Government laws, etc etc.

This involves much finance and time and effort to keep the whole system functioning. None of that is in God`s word when discipling others.

 

[Michael37]

17 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Roymond,

Good to bring up that point about the elders. Now, because we have mostly seen those in authority as `over ` others, especially in the world, then that is the example we tend to think of. However, Jesus said -

`You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet is shall NOT be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. ` (Matt. 20: 25 & 26)

We see that Jesus is showing the opposite from the world`s way of operating. So, we ask ourselves how does it work with elders appointed. Let`s look at Paul, Timothy and Silvanus working amongst the believers.

`Pau, Silvanus and Timothy......we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes he own children....remember, brethren, our labour and toil, for labouring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you,....

You are witnesses and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe; as you know how we exhorted, and comforted, and charged everyone of you, as a father does his own children...` (1 Thess. 1: 1,  2: 7 - 11)

These men in authority worked among the believers so they saw their behaviour, and attitude - as a nursing mother and caring father; they also worked to pay their own way so as not be a burden to the believers.

The criteria for an elder is moral character whereas today a leader of an organisation would need to be a CEO, with the ability to oversee all the operating of it. This involves, managing buildings, maintenance, hiring staff, organising people to look after the grounds and attend to the operating of a public meeting - with insurance, equipment, obeying Government laws, etc etc.

This involves much finance and time and effort to keep the whole system functioning. None of that is in God`s word when discipling others.

 

The 200-300 adherents of the Elim assembly in our city have just been told the building it owned has been sold because the upkeep and mortgage costs had become more than it could sustain. No alternative has been decided on but they still have a month to find one.

[Marilyn C]

4 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

The 200-300 adherents of the Elim assembly in our city have just been told the building it owned has been sold because the upkeep and mortgage costs had become more than it could sustain. No alternative has been decided on but they still have a month to find one.

Moving to house churches would save money and people would have more interaction, but then the `model` of leadership `over others,` could make little fiefdoms. Still, people would then vote with their feet. 

But, I don`t see that happening as most people going to a public meeting think that that IS the church, and don`t realise it is just one way of coming together.

all the best.

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Moving to house churches would save money and people would have more interaction, but then the `model` of leadership `over others,` could make little fiefdoms. Still, people would then vote with their feet. 

But, I don`t see that happening as most people going to a public meeting think that that IS the church, and don`t realise it is just one way of coming together.

all the best.

I'll keep you posted.

[Neighbor]

On 3/10/2023 at 4:01 PM, Vine Abider said:

Yet, they do have the practices of the aforementioned hierarchical system, as does much of Christendom.

Hi, Like what for instance? I'm not following you.

(But then I have not ever had a problem working  within the order that is local bodies of Christ Jesus that do try to be Biblical in their structure.)

[Neighbor]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The 200-300 adherents of the Elim assembly in our city have just been told the building it owned has been sold because the upkeep and mortgage costs had become more than it could sustain. No alternative has been decided on but they still have a month to find one.

Have they asked for help  from other local congregations in the form of sharing space till a new property can be rented?

Are there any empty storefront spaces or strip malls empty around there? 

[Neighbor]

It is easier to say meet in homes than it is to do.

Try parking 15 to 40 cars in a neighborhood  in a city on a regular basis and you will find you are creating a serious nuisance. There is good reason for zoning  and safe building codes.

[Michael37]

28 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Have they asked for help  from other local congregations in the form of sharing space till a new property can be rented?

Are there any empty storefront spaces or strip malls empty around there? 

They are reaching out in all directions. The Lead Team will direct the Serve Team on the logistics of vacating the premises, and the Care Team will attend to individual needs.