Pre-tribulation (for lack of a better word)

[kenny2212]

John 16:33 (NKJV) - These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

I believe there is no such as thing as "Pre-tribulation" in this world. To have any such thing as "Pre-tribulation", we would have to go back to the Garden of Eden, before the fall. Since the fall, there has always been tribulation in one part of the world or another. It's not Pre-tribulation, it's Pre-wrath. Also I'd rather call it the "70th week" rather than "the tribulation".

Edited March 11, 2023 by kenny2212

[FJK]

Final tribulation might be the better tern to use when discussing such things, as in pre-final tribulation instead of pre-tribulation.

 

Just my way of thinking about it, not to be dismissing other ways of thinking.

[kenny2212]

7 minutes ago, FJK said:

Final tribulation might be the better tern to use when discussing such things, as in pre-final tribulation instead of pre-tribulation.

 

Just my way of thinking about it, not to be dismissing other ways of thinking.

Yes. There is the term "Great tribulation" in the bible. "Tribulation", "Great tribulation", it's all tribulation. 

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Yes. There is the term "Great tribulation" in the bible. "Tribulation", "Great tribulation", it's all tribulation. 

I think that you'll have to reconsider. "THE" Great Tribulation differs from Tribulation in that;

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened (Matt.24:21–22)

Now, that includes the great flood of Noah's time. There the "elect" were saved. In the coming tribulation the "elect" are on the brink of being annihilated. And for the first time supernatural torments are added to men. For the first time men will decide on suicide but be unable to accomplish it.

What we have experienced up to now is what men can inflict on us. But there comes a day when God is the Torturer, and of this it is said in Mathew 10:28 ..

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in GEHENNA

In the Book of Revelation the word "WRATH" is mentioned 13 times. 10 of then refer to God's WRATH. It is this wrath that Jesus must die for (1st Thess.1:10, 5:9). It is one thing to be the aim of men's wrath. It is fully another thing to be the object of God's wrath.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb.10:31)

But we agree that "Pre-Tribulation" is a man-made concept. Why, everything that happens before the Tribulation begins is "Pre-Tribulation". Pre-Tribulation birth of Adam, Pre-Tribulation birth of Noah, Pre-Tribulation rapture of Enoch and Elijah. Some even speak of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. But nobody seems to mention that this rapture is given only to the Overcomers of the Church. At least our Lord's prophecies are consistent. Five Virgins thought the extra oil was for free - and were called "foolish" by the Holy Spirit

 

[Selah7]

24 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I think that you'll have to reconsider. "THE" Great Tribulation differs from Tribulation in that;

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened (Matt.24:21–22)

 

Amen.

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Some even speak of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. But nobody seems to mention that this rapture is given only to the Overcomers of the Church. At least our Lord's prophecies are consistent. Five Virgins thought the extra oil was for free - and were called "foolish" by the Holy Spirit

 

No such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the church as you claim, it's the invention of John N. Darby 1830's and supported by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible, better known as dispensationalism

The Church will be present on the earth to see the great tribulation, and be eyewitnesses of the Lord's return in the heavens

Luke 21:25-28KJV

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Edited March 12, 2023 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

No such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the church as you claim, it's the invention of John N. Darby 1830's and supported by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible, better known as dispensationalism

The Church will be present on the earth to see the great tribulation, and be eyewitnesses of the Lord's return in the heavens

Luke 21:25-28KJV

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

It's your right to disagree, but to this day I've never seen an argument built by you. Sure, you quote verses like above, but never comment on them. Like the scripture above, if you had taken the time to study it you would have seen that verse 25 to 27 is a section on "Nations" and "MEN" and "the powers of HEAVEN that "THEY" will see. Only in verse 28 does it mentions the Church. And far from going through it all, we will witness ONLY "the BEGINNING". It continues to to promise that having witnessed "the BEGINNING", we are to take heart for a REDEMPTION is near - a REDEMPTION from the thing that frighten men to the emptying of their bowels.

It is your right to disagree, but its time to read Darby and then formulate your counter. I also do not agree with ALL that brother Darby wrote, but I can give my reasons. You, as an eloquent and intelligent man, should do the same. Don't read pamphlets written by Darby-bashers. Read Darby himself and then bash him with sound counter-argumentation.

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It's your right to disagree, but to this day I've never seen an argument built by you. Sure, you quote verses like above, but never comment on them. Like the scripture above, if you had taken the time to study it you would have seen that verse 25 to 27 is a section on "Nations" and "MEN" and "the powers of HEAVEN that "THEY" will see. Only in verse 28 does it mentions the Church. And far from going through it all, we will witness ONLY "the BEGINNING". It continues to to promise that having witnessed "the BEGINNING", we are to take heart for a REDEMPTION is near - a REDEMPTION from the thing that frighten men to the emptying of their bowels.

It is your right to disagree, but its time to read Darby and then formulate your counter. I also do not agree with ALL that brother Darby wrote, but I can give my reasons. You, as an eloquent and intelligent man, should do the same. Don't read pamphlets written by Darby-bashers. Read Darby himself and then bash him with sound counter-argumentation.

Darby and Scofield water under the bridge "long ago", placed in the corner with the rest of the heretics, their dispensationalism is absolute heresy 

The Church will go through the 3.5 year tribulation, and be eyewitnesses of the second coming of the Lord in the heavens 

C.I. Scofield is the modern father of Dispensationalsim, he was instrumental in the founding of (Dallas Theological Seminary) as (Lewis S. Chafer) was his student and disciple.

Dallas Theological Alumni:
Hal Lindsey, David Jeremiah, J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Swindoll, Tim La Haye, Thomas Ice, Charles Ryrie

The Scofield Reference Bible 1909, maintained (Dispensationalism's) teachings in the margins

The 1909 reference bible was the single greatest source and influence in spreading (Dispensationalism) throughout the world, with millions of copies sold, and on pulpits and under arms from 1909-1970 in the majority

C.I. Scofield was married to Leotine, and had two daughters, he abandoned them in Kansas without support and ended up pastoring a Church in Dallas Texas at 41 years old, there he met the Sunday School college girl (Hettie Van Wart) 24 years old, Scofield divorced his wife Leotine and married Hettie in 1884 (Adultery)

(Adultery) Scofield remained married to Hettie until his death in 1921,while his lawful wife Leotine lived, dying in 1936

C.I. Scofield produced the greatest influence in the world relating to (Dispensationalism) in his 1909 reference bible, while Hettie was the secretary and assistant on this work, that was produced by (Adulterers) C.I. Scofield & Hettie Van Wart (Corrupt Fruit)

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

 

 

[3] Even after Dr. Scofield’s omission of his daughters from his 1920 biography, Abbie Scofield Kellogg and her sister continued to correspond with their long-absent father. Despite this, Dr. Scofield’s will made no mention of either Abigail or Helen but left his entire estate, including the substantial royalty payments from Oxford University Press, to his wife Hettie Scofield and his son Noel Paul Scofield. [4]

Abigail and her sister Helene graduated from the Atchison High School. Helene Scofield became a teacher of French at the Barstow School in Kansas City and Abigail Scofield taught in the elementary schools of Atchison for many years. [2]

Abigail Scofield Kellogg was the San Luis Obispo City Librarian and one of the most popular residents of the community. [1] [2] [5]

She was a member of the American Library Association, California Library Association, San Luis Obispo Monday Club, Book Club. [1]

On June 23, 1902, Abigail Scofield married Dr. Edward Lincoln Kellogg (1859-1935), a dentist in Atchison and a prominent member of the Trinity Episcopal church. To improve her husband health, they moved first to West Plains, Missouri and then to California in 1913 and lived at 1356 Higuera Street, San Luis Obispo, California. [1] [2] After the death of both her husband and her brother-in-law, she went back to Atchison to live with her sister. [5]

Abigail Scofield Kellogg died on February 27, 1958, in Atchison, Kansas, and was buried in the Mt. Calvary cemetery there. [4] [6] [2]

Sources:
Binheim, Max; Elvin, Charles A (1928). Women of the West; a series of biographical sketches of living eminent women in the eleven western states of the United States of America. p. 58. Retrieved 8 August 2017. This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
"28 Feb 1958, Fri • Page 1". The Atchison Daily Globe: 1. 1958. Retrieved 8 September 2017.
John D. Hannah, "Scofield, Cyrus Ingerson" American National Biography Online February 2000.
"From Confederate Deserter to Decorated Veteran Bible Scholar: Exploring the E nigmatic Life of C.I. Scofield 1861-1921." Retrieved 8 September 2017.
"28 Feb 1958, Fri • Page 2". The Atchison Daily Globe: 2. 1958. Retrieved 8 September 2017.
"01 Mar 1958, Sat • Page 8". The Kansas City Times: 8. 1958. Retrieved 8 September 2017.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Darby and Scofield water under the bridge "long ago", placed in the corner with the rest of the heretics, their dispensationalism is absolute heresy 

The Church will go through the 3.5 year tribulation, and be eyewitnesses of the second coming of the Lord in the heavens 

C.I. Scofield is the modern father of Dispensationalsim, he was instrumental in the founding of (Dallas Theological Seminary) as (Lewis S. Chafer) was his student and disciple.

Dallas Theological Alumni:
Hal Lindsey, David Jeremiah, J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Swindoll, Tim La Haye, Thomas Ice, Charles Ryrie

The Scofield Reference Bible 1909, maintained (Dispensationalism's) teachings in the margins

The 1909 reference bible was the single greatest source and influence in spreading (Dispensationalism) throughout the world, with millions of copies sold, and on pulpits and under arms from 1909-1970 in the majority

C.I. Scofield was married to Leotine, and had two daughters, he abandoned them in Kansas without support and ended up pastoring a Church in Dallas Texas at 41 years old, there he met the Sunday School college girl (Hettie Van Wart) 24 years old, Scofield divorced his wife Leotine and married Hettie in 1884 (Adultery)

(Adultery) Scofield remained married to Hettie until his death in 1921,while his lawful wife Leotine lived, dying in 1936

C.I. Scofield produced the greatest influence in the world relating to (Dispensationalism) in his 1909 reference bible, while Hettie was the secretary and assistant on this work, that was produced by (Adulterers) C.I. Scofield & Hettie Van Wart (Corrupt Fruit)

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

 

 

[3] Even after Dr. Scofield’s omission of his daughters from his 1920 biography, Abbie Scofield Kellogg and her sister continued to correspond with their long-absent father. Despite this, Dr. Scofield’s will made no mention of either Abigail or Helen but left his entire estate, including the substantial royalty payments from Oxford University Press, to his wife Hettie Scofield and his son Noel Paul Scofield. [4]

Abigail and her sister Helene graduated from the Atchison High School. Helene Scofield became a teacher of French at the Barstow School in Kansas City and Abigail Scofield taught in the elementary schools of Atchison for many years. [2]

Abigail Scofield Kellogg was the San Luis Obispo City Librarian and one of the most popular residents of the community. [1] [2] [5]

She was a member of the American Library Association, California Library Association, San Luis Obispo Monday Club, Book Club. [1]

On June 23, 1902, Abigail Scofield married Dr. Edward Lincoln Kellogg (1859-1935), a dentist in Atchison and a prominent member of the Trinity Episcopal church. To improve her husband health, they moved first to West Plains, Missouri and then to California in 1913 and lived at 1356 Higuera Street, San Luis Obispo, California. [1] [2] After the death of both her husband and her brother-in-law, she went back to Atchison to live with her sister. [5]

Abigail Scofield Kellogg died on February 27, 1958, in Atchison, Kansas, and was buried in the Mt. Calvary cemetery there. [4] [6] [2]

Sources:
Binheim, Max; Elvin, Charles A (1928). Women of the West; a series of biographical sketches of living eminent women in the eleven western states of the United States of America. p. 58. Retrieved 8 August 2017. This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
"28 Feb 1958, Fri • Page 1". The Atchison Daily Globe: 1. 1958. Retrieved 8 September 2017.
John D. Hannah, "Scofield, Cyrus Ingerson" American National Biography Online February 2000.
"From Confederate Deserter to Decorated Veteran Bible Scholar: Exploring the E nigmatic Life of C.I. Scofield 1861-1921." Retrieved 8 September 2017.
"28 Feb 1958, Fri • Page 2". The Atchison Daily Globe: 2. 1958. Retrieved 8 September 2017.
"01 Mar 1958, Sat • Page 8". The Kansas City Times: 8. 1958. Retrieved 8 September 2017.

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to give all that information. Brother Scofield certainly cannot claim much fame. Brother Darby made some serious mistakes (in my humble opinion). But it is folly to set aside their beliefs and teachings based on this alone. Paul claimed the titles of Chief of sinners under inspiration (1st Tim.1:15) and carried with him a "messenger of Satan" till his dying day (2nd Cor.12:7). He also disobeyed multiple speakings of the Holy Spirit through the saints about not going to Jerusalem where his "Church-planting" career ended. Even if you can justify this blatant refusal to do what the Holy Spirit commanded, you are still faced with Paul going to the center of the "Circumcision" to partake in rite of the Law he knew was crucified with Christ. Peter might be excused for denying the Lord thrice before men, but what of his "not representing the gospel uprightly" in Galatians 2?

Should Paul and Peter's writings be discarded?

If you have studied Darby and co and found them to be wanting in doctrine, you, as a reasonable man, should have a reason. Are you not bound to make it your work to convince not so gifted Christians using a sound counter argument? I teach a rapture of harvest - that is, there is one rapture of "Firstfruits", which continues some time later when the heat and dryness has ripened the rest, and then a further catching away of the gleanings like the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. It is an absolute minority point of view and not well accepted, but I stand ready to give my argument day and night. It was not me who said the "gathering of the Wheat" at the end of the age was a harvest. It was our Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 13:30 & 39. If all the facts fit this theory am I not bound to cling to to it and teach until a better argument is established?

My argument places the diligent, faithful and Christ-loving Christian in the air before the onset of the Great Tribulation. It answers why the bulk of Christians are left to face the Beast and the Great Tribulation (Rev.7:9-17 & 13:7). It answers why Paul said the PRIZE of the "Upward call" (lit. Gk.) of Philippians 3 must be "attained to". It includes the Jewish Remnant Sealed but not removed from earth. And it allows for only SOME to have the right garment for the Marriage Feast of the Lamb in Revelation 19. It is only unpopular because the bulk of Christianity are fed a diet of "everything is is FREE" - just like the foolish Virgins of Matthew 25.

But we've been through this together before. I don't mind if you don't answer.

[truth7t7]

35 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for taking the time to give all that information. Brother Scofield certainly cannot claim much fame. Brother Darby made some serious mistakes (in my humble opinion). But it is folly to set aside their beliefs and teachings based on this alone. Paul claimed the titles of Chief of sinners under inspiration (1st Tim.1:15) and carried with him a "messenger of Satan" till his dying day (2nd Cor.12:7). He also disobeyed multiple speakings of the Holy Spirit through the saints about not going to Jerusalem where his "Church-planting" career ended. Even if you can justify this blatant refusal to do what the Holy Spirit commanded, you are still faced with Paul going to the center of the "Circumcision" to partake in rite of the Law he knew was crucified with Christ. Peter might be excused for denying the Lord thrice before men, but what of his "not representing the gospel uprightly" in Galatians 2?

Should Paul and Peter's writings be discarded?

If you have studied Darby and co and found them to be wanting in doctrine, you, as a reasonable man, should have a reason. Are you not bound to make it your work to convince not so gifted Christians using a sound counter argument? I teach a rapture of harvest - that is, there is one rapture of "Firstfruits", which continues some time later when the heat and dryness has ripened the rest, and then a further catching away of the gleanings like the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. It is an absolute minority point of view and not well accepted, but I stand ready to give my argument day and night. It was not me who said the "gathering of the Wheat" at the end of the age was a harvest. It was our Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 13:30 & 39. If all the facts fit this theory am I not bound to cling to to it and teach until a better argument is established?

My argument places the diligent, faithful and Christ-loving Christian in the air before the onset of the Great Tribulation. It answers why the bulk of Christians are left to face the Beast and the Great Tribulation (Rev.7:9-17 & 13:7). It answers why Paul said the PRIZE of the "Upward call" (lit. Gk.) of Philippians 3 must be "attained to". It includes the Jewish Remnant Sealed but not removed from earth. And it allows for only SOME to have the right garment for the Marriage Feast of the Lamb in Revelation 19. It is only unpopular because the bulk of Christianity are fed a diet of "everything is is FREE" - just like the foolish Virgins of Matthew 25.

But we've been through this together before. I don't mind if you don't answer.

Scripture clearly teaches that when Jesus returns and the resurrection takes place at "The Last Trump"  (The Last Enemy Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

Will You falsely believe and teach mortal time continues on this earth beyond the "Second Coming" 

Will You openly deny the truth of scripture below, in false claims death isn't swallowed up in victory below?

"All" that are in the Graves shall hear his voice and come forth, both righteous and wicked "All"!

Jesus Is The Lord

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Then Cometh The End) (The Last Enemy Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 & 51-54KJV

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.