The Lord Will Plead His Case

[farouk]

15 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

John 1:17 For the Law was given by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.

Daniel 9:

11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 

12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 

14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 

15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

16 O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

In a religious world which in many ways can be so legalistic, John 1.17 is indeed so refreshing:

"For the Law was given by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ."

[Mr. M]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

God always sees the remnant as representative of His whole people. Mordecai and Esther are comfortable in Babylon. They have no interest in God's Land, God's City and God's House. They belong to the 97% who refused to go back and build their God His long-desired House. God looks after them, but neither God nor His Name is mentioned in the Book of Esther. But Ezra and his followers, the 48,000 from Babylon with God's desire as their desire - are called ISRAEL although they were Judah (Ezra 2:2 etc. etc.).

Ezra 2:

1 Now these are the people of the province who came back from the captivity, of those who had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away to Babylon, and who returned to Jerusalem and Judah, everyone to his own city.

2 Those who came with Zerubbabel were Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah,  Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, and Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:

Yes, there were men of Israel among the captivity in Babylon. They were taken to Babylon, and should have only remained for 70 years to fulfill the words of Jeremiah. In the judgment of Judah and Jerusalem there was no dispersion of the peoples across the earth like the Northern Kingdom. Therefore, in Ezekiel 20, which addresses the dispersed cannot be addressing the Babylonian captivity, but the judgment of the second temple, with all Israel and Judah were dispersed to the "four corners of the world". This is the topic, as addressed in the OP.

On 3/25/2023 at 8:10 PM, Mr. M said:

Ezekiel 20:33-38 As I live, says the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you says the Lord God.

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Mr. M
spelling

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Ezra 2:

1 Now these are the people of the province who came back from the captivity, of those who had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away to Babylon, and who returned to Jerusalem and Judah, everyone to his own city.

2 Those who came with Zerubbabel were Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah,  Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, and Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:

Yes, there were men of Israel among the captivity in Babylon. They were taken to Babylon, and should have only remained for 70 years to fulfill the words of Jeremiah. In the judgment of Judah and Jerusalem there was no dispersion of the peoples across the earth like the Northern Kingdom. Therefore, in Ezekiel 20, which addresses the dispersed cannot be addressing the Babylonian captivity, but the judgment of the second temple, with all Israel and Judah were dispersed to the "four corners of the world". This is the topic, as addressed in the OP.

 

Okay. My posting was to show that God can, and does call Judeans "Israel".

I appreciate your understanding of Ezekiel 20, but you'll have to explain how the "Elders of Israel" stand before Ezekiel in 70 AD. Ezekiel lived from about 622 BC (death date unknown). Then you have to explain how God will gather them back when at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD He dispersed them. Then, if you say that "ALL Israel and Judah were dispersed at the destruction of the Second Temple", you have to overcome the fact that Israel (the Northern Tribes)were deported by the Assyrians NEVER TO RETURN. There were no doubt individuals of all Tribes still there nearly 700 years after Assyria carried them off, but the Northern Nations could not possibly have been there in 70 AD.

I would say that Ezekiel 20 concerns the remainder of Israel who were carried off by Nebuchadnezzar. God relates how their fathers provoked Him in the wilderness, how they provoked Him in the Good Land and now they now provoked Him. That your section in Ezekiel. Verse 37 shows how the gathering is yet future because at the time Ezekiel wrote they were still under the PAST Covenant of Sinai. The Covenant of verse 37 is still future and must be that of Jeremiah 31:31-33. And above all it gives the time of the prophecy - 7 years ito the captivity and in front of Ezekiel.

The prophecy seems to jump over the Second Temple era because God did not bring Ezra and later Nehemiah back in "fury". Much more will Jehovah bring back "ALL Israel in fury" when they agree to the Beast living in the Third Temple. It seems to agree with Daniel 12:1-2 were Israel is gathered back after "Jacob's Trouble" and many will be in disgrace even though brought back to the Land.

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Mr. M said:

In the judgment of Judah and Jerusalem there was no dispersion of the peoples across the earth like the Northern Kingdom.

I just want to point out that only 2.5%, or about 48,000 of the total Jews in Babylon actually came back. 97% stayed there and are today scattered as far as Japan. Babylon itself lies in ruins right now so no Jews are there. They must be dispersed.

[Mr. M]

8 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Verse 37 shows how the gathering is yet future because at the time Ezekiel wrote they were still under the PAST Covenant of Sinai. The Covenant of verse 37 is still future and must be that of Jeremiah 31:31-33. And above all it gives the time of the prophecy - 7 years ito the captivity and in front of Ezekiel.

The prophecy seems to jump over the Second Temple era because God did not bring Ezra and later Nehemiah back in "fury". Much more will Jehovah bring back "ALL Israel in fury" when they agree to the Beast living in the Third Temple. It seems to agree with Daniel 12:1-2 were Israel is gathered back after "Jacob's Trouble" and many will be in disgrace even though brought back to the Land.

As I said.

7 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Therefore, in Ezekiel 20, which addresses the dispersed cannot be addressing the Babylonian captivity, but the judgment of the second temple, with all Israel and Judah were dispersed to the "four corners of the world".

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I appreciate your understanding of Ezekiel 20, but you'll have to explain how the "Elders of Israel" stand before Ezekiel in 70 AD.

I never said that they did. The only '70' I mentioned was the duration of the Babylonian captivity.

Secondly, Ezekiel is never addressed. Beginning in chapter 2, the son of man is sent to many places, carried by the Spirit. This seems to be often overlooked, and I am not going to go through the book pointing out every instance where he spoke.

Ez 2:1 And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” 2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. 3 And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.

That is all I will say for now, since I am getting notices that you are dropping in more responses.

[Mr. M]

5 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Secondly, Ezekiel is never addressed. Beginning in chapter 2, the son of man is sent to many places, carried by the Spirit. This seems to be often overlooked, and I am not going to go through the book pointing out every instance where he spoke.

Ez 3:14 So the Spirit lifted me up and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the Lord was strong upon me. 15 Then I came to the captives at Tel Abib, who dwelt by the River Chebar; and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days.

Must have been a fun ride, eh!

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Mr. M said:

As I said.

I never said that they did. The only '70' I mentioned was the duration of the Babylonian captivity.

Secondly, Ezekiel is never addressed. Beginning in chapter 2, the son of man is sent to many places, carried by the Spirit. This seems to be often overlooked, and I am not going to go through the book pointing out every instance where he spoke.

Ez 2:1 And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” 2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. 3 And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.

That is all I will say for now, since I am getting notices that you are dropping in more responses.

 

14 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Ez 3:14 So the Spirit lifted me up and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the Lord was strong upon me. 15 Then I came to the captives at Tel Abib, who dwelt by the River Chebar; and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days.

Must have been a fun ride, eh!

You know, I've lost track of the argument, and on re-reading your postings I think that we are arguing about the same thing, just using different terminology. I'm happy to walk away from it. And , yeah, Ezekiel must have quite a ride. Interesting that God left Jeremiah and took Ezekiel for the captivity. It's almost like Jeremiah is responsible for pleading God's case from the earthly point of view, while Ezekiel gets to show the heavenly perspective. I am deeply saddened for Jehovah's sake that He had to vacate and give over His House to a Gentile king's conquest. The dedication of "the place I choose to put my Name" in Solomon's day was so glorious, and here we have God's glory receding. In the subsequent time period of 70 years Jehovah is never called, "The God of heaven and earth" - ONLY, "the God of Heaven". His House on earth was gone.

And now, in the near future, a third House will be built by Israel, but this one they open for a Gentile king - the Beast. Sad.

[Mr. M]

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You know, I've lost track of the argument

I didn't know we were arguing, I thought we were 'analyzing'.

Some good insights, thanks for sharing. Next time we are 'arguing',

I'll be more vicious, and hit you with a flower. (cultural reference: old Lou Reed song.)

Honestly, I thought we did come to agree that the gathering is yet to come, and

Ezekiel 20 refers to that event. 

God is good, and His steadfast Love is eternal.

[Mr. M]

54 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Interesting that God left Jeremiah and took Ezekiel for the captivity.

I was considering that once before a while back. Jeremiah at one point after the first

carrying away, was taken hostage to Egypt (Jeremiah 43).

The passage I was considering is found in Isaiah 59:

16 He saw that there was no man,
And wondered that there was no intercessor;
Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him;
And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

I asked the Lord, surely there was a least one of your prophets in the land.

Then I remembered that Ezekiel was in captivity in Babylon, and Jeremiah

was in Egypt, and the Lord took matters into his own hands(arm).

17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate,
And a helmet of salvation on His head;
He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
And was clad with zeal as a cloak.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

It's almost like Jeremiah is responsible for pleading God's case from the earthly point of view, while Ezekiel gets to show the heavenly perspective.

That is an interesting perspective indeed.

[Mr. M]

I was thinking about the meaning of the word @AdHoc, and remembered this,

Ad Hoc verse from the scriptures.

Titus 3:14 And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses,

that they be not unfruitful.