rapture?

[JohnD]

I recently checked out a fellow online who I once thought was a great man of God.  He took over a national apologetics ministry when its founder passed away almost 40 years ago. I even met him once at a lecture / book selling in the mid 1990's. I since found (from the founder's daughter who heads up a ministry) that this fellow gained control of her father's legacy through unscrupulous methods and methodically eradicated her father's legacy of all that her father spent a lifetime building to succeed him in his death.

This fellow I refer to packed the apologetics ministry off to an eastern location in the U.S. and many of the Christian radio networks that carried the on air program dropped it. He has since converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity. I lost interest in this fellow years earlier, but dropped in to the online feed to listen to the questions and answers sessions / format of the apologetics show to see if it had gotten any worse. This fellow now teaches that there will be no rapture whatsoever at all... that the traditional texts (1 Corinthians 15:51-55 / 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) are about the second coming of Christ not some mysterious vanishing act before it gets rough down here on planet Earth. 

The thing is... he is part right.

The texts he mentions are about he second coming / general resurrection of the dead. The tradition that cites them as being about the Rapture (generally attributed to Darby) is wrong.

But!

The fellow I mention is dead wrong about there not being a rapture at all. There will be a taking out of believers before the Great Tribulation (the last half of the 70th Week of Daniel) when God pours his wrath out on men and angels. God's wrath for believers was poured out on Jesus on the cross. He will not just believers again. This does not mean believers will not suffer or be persecuted... Chuck Missler pointed out that most believers in most of history have suffered and that mainly for their faith. The first half of the 70th Week of Daniel (3 1/2 years roughly) will be the tribulation of the saints (Revelation 12:17-13:18). Then will come the taking out of the few that remain alive before the wrath of God is poured out (Revelation 3:10 / Daniel 12:12).

The term "rapture" is from the Latin Vulgate translation (rapturo) for the taking up in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (at the second coming of Jesus). The taking out is a more accurate description of what will take place before the Great Tribulation.

Interesting to note in the prophetic Passover Seder:

The Four Cups represent the four expressions of deliverance promised by God Exodus 6:6–7: "I will bring out," "I will deliver," "I will redeem," and "I will take." The Vilna Gaon relates the Four Cups to four worlds: this world, the Messianic age, the world at the revival of the dead, and the world to come.   

What is traditionally called the rapture is actually the taking out.

[LiveWire]

15 minutes ago, JohnD said:

There will be a taking out of believers before the Great Tribulation (the last half of the 70th Week of Daniel) when God pours his wrath out on men and angels. God's wrath for believers was poured out on Jesus on the cross. He will not just believers again. This does not mean believers will not suffer or be persecuted... Chuck Missler pointed out that most believers in most of history have suffered and that mainly for their faith. The first half of the 70th Week of Daniel (3 1/2 years roughly) will be the tribulation of the saints (Revelation 12:17-13:18). Then will come the taking out of the few that remain alive before the wrath of God is poured out (Revelation 3:10 / Daniel 12:12).

I personally believe, if tomorrow began day one of the 7 year Tribulation, we would not know the difference because we are pre-Wrath, not pre-Tribulation.   Pre-Tribulation actually is not Scripturally sound, Pre-Wrath is what Jesus preached.

 

Jesus said, there would be marriage, normal life, nothing chaotic in the "beginning" of Tribulation.   But then He would expand and reveal that sometime after those days begin, days would grow to get harder for even the Elect.  So, Jesus was showing us a gradual but steady process from normal to becoming hectic.   Jesus put Birthing Pangs right up to possible year 2 or later before the actual Birth of Wrath.  the Man of Sin don't even reveal himself to well after midpoint and then the Mark and Number come into play.

 

I am 100% pro-pre-Wrath!

[com7fy8]

Jesus says when He will return and gather His "elect" >

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" >

You can check Matthew 24:29-31.

He does not here say He will return immediately before, but immediately after. Plus, no scripture directly says Jesus will come back just before the end-time tribulation.

In case we are present while God's wrath judgments come upon the evil, our Father is able to control Himself so His wrath things do not hurt us.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were thrown into that fiery furnace, but those flames did not hurt them. But those same flames did kill the soldiers who threw them in there. Like this, God is able to manage who is and is not affected by His wrath judgments.

But there are pre-trib believers who say that Jesus has to come before the great tribulation so they can avoid God's wrath judgments of the trib. But this is not a Biblical reason for a pre-trib return of Jesus, because our Father is able to control Himself in how His wrath works. He is not like human abusive fathers who can hurt anyone who gets near to them.

[farouk]

Measured by the entities mentioned in 1 Cor. 10.32, John 14.3 presumably refers to the church; so it is not inaccurate to speak of the rapture of the church.

[debrakay]

• 'I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. ' - Luke 17:34-36

• 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

• These are the verses I like to contemplate when thinking about how the Lord will make His appearance at the end of times. I am not too concerned with the details but only want my lamp lit and my oil ready for Him.   I have an awesome story about watching my husband's spirit pass from this life to the next when he died in September if anyone would like to hear about it.

[farouk]

23 minutes ago, debrakay said:

• 'I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. ' - Luke 17:34-36

• 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

• These are the verses I like to contemplate when thinking about how the Lord will make His appearance at the end of times. I am not too concerned with the details but only want my lamp lit and my oil ready for Him.   I have an awesome story about watching my husband's spirit pass from this life to the next when he died in September if anyone would like to hear about it.

@debrakay Shows we need to keep looking up (Hebrews 12.2)..........

I wonder if the Luke 17 passage refers to tribulation saints.

[debrakay]

14 minutes ago, farouk said:

I wonder if the Luke 17 passage refers to tribulation saints.

I would think so. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees about when the kingdom of God would come and how in the times of Noah and Sodom that all people were destroyed but for this particular time, he reminds them, "whosoever seeks to save his life will lose it and whoever loses his life will preserve it."  We lose our lives to Jesus when we choose Him as savior and redeemer and He then saves us in "the end" whether it be our end of life or the end of all life. 

There is a last book of our Holy Bible and one day it will come to pass.  He told us during life we will all have trial and tribulations, but Revelation is specific there will be one final tribulation for all of mankind.  Some will not have endure it as it says in Matthew 24:22 that the days of the great tribulation would be shortened to spare the elect (eklektos aka chosen). In Luke 17:30 he says, 'Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. '  

[farouk]

2 minutes ago, debrakay said:

I would think so. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees about when the kingdom of God would come and how in the times of Noah and Sodom that all people were destroyed but for this particular time, he reminds them, "whosoever seeks to save his life will lose it and whoever loses his life will preserve it."  We lose our lives to Jesus when we choose Him as savior and redeemer and He then saves us in "the end" whether it be our end of life or the end of all life. 

There is a last book of our Holy Bible and one day it will come to pass.  He told us during life we will all have trial and tribulations, but Revelation is specific there will be one final tribulation for all of mankind.  Some will not have endure it as it says in Matthew 24:22 that the days of the great tribulation would be shortened to spare the elect (eklektos aka chosen). In Luke 17:30 he says, 'Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. '  

@debrakay What an encouragement is John 16.33!

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

[BibleWords]

1 hour ago, com7fy8 said:

Jesus says when He will return and gather His "elect" >

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" >

You can check Matthew 24:29-31.

He does not here say He will return immediately before, but immediately after. Plus, no scripture directly says Jesus will come back just before the end-time tribulation.

In case we are present while God's wrath judgments come upon the evil, our Father is able to control Himself so His wrath things do not hurt us.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were thrown into that fiery furnace, but those flames did not hurt them. But those same flames did kill the soldiers who threw them in there. Like this, God is able to manage who is and is not affected by His wrath judgments.

But there are pre-trib believers who say that Jesus has to come before the great tribulation so they can avoid God's wrath judgments of the trib. But this is not a Biblical reason for a pre-trib return of Jesus, because our Father is able to control Himself in how His wrath works. He is not like human abusive fathers who can hurt anyone who gets near to them.

The rapture is real!  The Bible teaches it and that it will occur prior to the great tribulation.

It is a secret coming.  Paul called it a be mystery.  It will happen as a thief in the night when Christ comes for His church.

And yes, you would know the tribulation had started because it is different than any other time has ever been in history.  Fortunately, if you are saved you will be gone to the Father’s house.

John 14:1-4 is one of the Scriptures which teach a pre-trib rapture.  Jesus starts out with “let not your heart be troubled” in verse 1.  He was reassuring His disciples that everything would be ok.  He did not say, sorry you may go through the worst time the earth has ever seen but don’t worry, right before the time of wrath I’ll come and get you out.  It is called the time of Jacob’s troubles for a reason.  It is not the time of the suffering church.  We will not be here.

The problem with most confusion on the rapture is in not seeing that they’re two distinct comings.  There is not just one coming.  The characteristics of the two comings are completely different.

At the rapture Jesus comes in the air and never to earth.  We are caught up in the clouds with the resurrected believers.  1 Thess. 4:16-18 is very clear.

No mid-trib.  No post-trib.  No partial rapture.  No pre-wrath.  No judgement.

The rapture is a time of catching away the church, not of out pouring wrath.

The rapture is our blessed hope, a promise of comfort.  1 Thess. 4:18 “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”  There would be no comfort if the church was to go through the tribulation.  That’s not comforting.  No, we escape through the rapture.

Also, John Nelson Darby did not start the rapture doctrine.  Jesus did, followed by Paul.  That is like saying Billy Graham started the doctrine of evangelism.  These men were proponents of these doctrines but they did not originate with them.  They originated in the Bible.

There are two distinct comings of Christ at the end.  They are the rapture and the second coming.

[Dennis1209]

Revisiting my long-held belief in pretribulationism, I thought I would check the exegesis of the second and third-century earliest church fathers and what they had to say. One would think Polycarp and Irenaeus, friends and disciples of the apostle John, would have expounded on what we call today's pre-mid-and Post Tribulation Rapture.

I was surprised I found no writings of their views and interpretations. These “doctrines” began in the 4^th century and were mainly propagated in the 19^th century.  

For centuries, brilliant scholars, theologians, and Bible teachers have had well-presented, educated arguments defending their exegesis. Many external and internal things affect what and how we believe. The timing of the harpazo should not divide and conquer us as Christians; us versus them mentality.