How can "the Church" be raptured BEFORE Jesus is risen?

[Montana Marv]

13 minutes ago, Jayne said:

I don't know what PTRD means.

Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Jayne]

6 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine

In Christ

Montana Marv

Thanks, I didn't know that.

I am a pre-tribber.

I'll bow out now and regret posting.

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

A Saint is someone who has been Redeemed.  O.T. Saints were Redeemed when Christ was Crucified, Buried and Arose, then going to Heaven with the Ascension of Christ.  The 1/3 of Israel who are to be tested and refined as of by fire, will also become Saints, they have been Redeemed.  Saints dying or going into captivity, have been Redeemed,  Those beheaded under the Altar also have been Redeemed.

Those Predestined before the foundations of the Earth are Saints, or will become Saints.  One big family, but not all the same.

In Christ

Montana Marv

What's your take on the confused thread title of a rapture doctrine that is out of sync with the resurrection and ascension of Christ?

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

You are reading it wrong.

 

He, being the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed.  Crucified, Buried, Arose, and Ascended.  Now already in Heaven before the Scriptures were penned.  And before the Church began at Pentecost.  To me the Elders with crowns are the Church; 12 of the Jews Believers, and 12 of the Gentiles Believers.  In Heaven before the scroll is even opened.  Thus the Pre-Trib Rapture has already taken place.  The Bema Seat of Christ has already happened.  The Bride has been given her rewards.  Then the Seals are opened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

At least I AM READING WHAT IS WRITTEN and not making up my own words.  

Why WOULD GOD 'rapture' the CHURCHES HE had JUST DESCRIBED without them being PROVED?  

The only thing WRITTEN about the PTR in the book of Revelation are words written BY MAN. 

NOT ONE WORD BY GOD.  






 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

You are reading it wrong.

 

He, being the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed.  Crucified, Buried, Arose, and Ascended.  Now already in Heaven before the Scriptures were penned.  And before the Church began at Pentecost.  To me the Elders with crowns are the Church; 12 of the Jews Believers, and 12 of the Gentiles Believers.  In Heaven before the scroll is even opened.  Thus the Pre-Trib Rapture has already taken place.  The Bema Seat of Christ has already happened.  The Bride has been given her rewards.  Then the Seals are opened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

That is ALL MADE UP, THAT ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN.  

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

  Now already in Heaven before the Scriptures were penned. 

You mean 'all scripture'? I hope not. Jesus was prophesied of by scripture, quoted scripture, referred to scripture, showed the errors of the people's interpretation and understanding of scripture.

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

And before the Church began at Pentecost. 

The church began long ago in the wilderness wandering. 

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 

To me the Elders with crowns are the Church; 12 of the Jews Believers, and 12 of the Gentiles Believers. 

Any hard evidence?

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 Thus the Pre-Trib Rapture has already taken place. 

A single unproveable premise and it results in a 'thus'? No. 

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The Bema Seat of Christ has already happened.  The Bride has been given her rewards.  Then the Seals are opened.

Any hard evidence of this? 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Well I have never come across anyone who does. 

 

Montana Marv is saying it in this thread. It's a common error in the pretrib doctrine, a conclusion apart from evidence. 

[Montana Marv]

8 hours ago, Michael37 said:

What's your take on the confused thread title of a rapture doctrine that is out of sync with the resurrection and ascension of Christ?

It is confusing.  We all are still here and no 70th Week yet.  The title itself is impossible.  Christ is the First Fruit. The Body of Christ is considered the second in line.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[bloom]

14 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The Ascension of Christ as witnessed by His followers forty days after His Resurrection:

Act 1:1-3  The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,  (2)  until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,  (3)  to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
Act 1:6-11  Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"  (7)  And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.  (8)  But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."  (9)  Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  (10)  And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,  (11)  who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
 

Many things have happened following the Ascension of Christ to heaven, including the vision given to John on the island of Patmos in which he is shown how God's Plan works out.

The Book of Revelation is a complex and highly symbolic work that describes a series of events leading up to the end of the world. The order of events in the book is not always clear and is subject to interpretation. However, a general outline of the events described in Revelation includes letters to seven churches, the opening of seven seals, the sounding of seven trumpets, the pouring out of seven bowls of wrath, and the final judgment.

The rapture is an event commonly referred to as the moment when Jesus will come for His Church before He establishes His kingdom on earth. The exact timing of the rapture in relation to the return of Christ is a subject of debate among Christians. Some believe that it will occur before a period of tribulation, while others believe that it will occur after or during this period.

The seven seals represent experiences that have been taking place on earth since antiquity, those that are currently occurring, and those that are particular to the cataclysmic end of the world. 

I like this table , but if you were to move the 7th seal and the 7th trump to the bottom line to happen at the same time as the 7th bowl how would it change your perception of the revelation.

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

You mean 'all scripture'? I hope not. Jesus was prophesied of by scripture, quoted scripture, referred to scripture, showed the errors of the people's interpretation and understanding of scripture.

The church began long ago in the wilderness wandering. 

Any hard evidence?

A single unproveable premise and it results in a 'thus'? No. 

Any hard evidence of this? 

N.T. Scripture.  Nothing in the O.T. ever hinted at a Bride of Christ/Church; it was a Mystery.

The Church begin at Pentecost.  40 days after Christ ascended.  The indwelling of the H.S.

When Christ was born, his earthly position was a little lower than the angels, as mans position is.  When the angels were created they had different functions; then after the fall of man they became messengers, warriors, and protectors.  No place in Scripture is an Angel ever considered an elder.  Acts 14:22,23 - We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.  Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church....  Acts 15:2b - to go up to Jerusalem to see the Apostles and Elders about this question.Acts 21:18 - The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James and all the elders were present.  James 5:14 - Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. Titus 1:6 - An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 1 Cor 9:25 - to get a crown that will last forever. Phil 4:1 - I long for my joy and crown.  1 Thes 2:9 - the crown in which we will glory. 

Your premise quote; No other group of individuals in Scripture have been promised Crowns except the Church.  Angels have never been promised Crowns, nor the four living Beasts before the Throne.

Any hard evidence of this?  Crowns have been given out and seen in Heaven. The Believers reward.

And since those with crowns are seated before the Throne of God, only one conclusion can be made; The Church/Body of Christ is already in Heaven via the Rapture and the rewards have been given out to those of the Bride. BEMA seat of Christ. And all this before the Scroll is opened.  Conclusion: The Pre-Trib Rapture event has occurred before the onset of the 70th Week.

In Christ

Montana Marv